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Britain to leave EU after referendum, PM David Cameron to resign in October.


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#41 ONLINE   BlueJeans

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:17 PM

I'm all for a debate, but a debate implies that people do a bit of research about what they're talking about. 

People were basically brainwashed that "Brussels", this enigmatic entity that no ones has power over, makes all the decisions and that the UK is big loser in all of this. Which isn't true. That's it. It isn't. Is the EU flawed ? Yes, on many levels. But how could one know what it really stands for and fight for if all you do is listen to certain national newspapers that say the EU steals your money ? 

 

The majority has spoken, but don't be surprised that the majority of youngsters who will have to face the consequences is outraged ?


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#42 OFFLINE   bummersummer

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:24 PM

no one is surprised over the outrage and revolt, but arguing that that's reason enough to repeat or try to change the result of a democratic referendum people had months to prepare for is a very different thing.



#43 ONLINE   BlueJeans

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:28 PM

I'm not, I just think people were lead to believe certain things that were manipulated or downright false. 

 

Speaking about a second referendum :

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...source=facebook

 

They're considering a second one because a petition is being massively signed, however: 

 

 

 

But Mr Cameron said the referendum was a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, saying the UK had "referendums not neverendums".

 

haha, nice one !


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#44 OFFLINE   bummersummer

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:35 PM

I'm not, I just think people were lead to believe certain things that were manipulated or downright false.

 

that's true about every referendum/election ever, and politics in general everywhere. hypothetical scenario: say Trump was elected president - everything you're saying also applies to his supporters. what should americans do in that case, repeat the elections too? i don't believe they'll repeat this referendum, but it shocks me it's being even somewhat seriously debated.



#45 OFFLINE   Summersault

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:41 PM

no. you can't live in a democracy and simultaneously tell people they don't know how to vote, or voted for the wrong reasons, when you don't agree with the results & try to change the rules so you can give it another shot. that is quite simply NOT a democracy & would be the source of far bigger problems than Brexit because it would set an incredibly dangerous precedent. it baffles me how so many people aren't aware of or choose to ignore this.

 

Maybe we're talking past each other, cause I dont suggest a re-vote. I'm just pointing out that it's higly concerning that people apparently don't seem to be fully informed about what they're voting on. 

 

http://www.independe...t-a7101856.html

 

http://www.independe...s-a7074311.html

 

http://trofire.com/2...n-complete-lie/

 

Just because democracy is our best bid so far on how to rule a state, doesn't mean that it's perfect and that we can't discuss its shortcomings.


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#46 ONLINE   BlueJeans

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 02:00 PM

that's true about every referendum/election ever, and politics in general everywhere. hypothetical scenario: say Trump was elected president - everything you're saying also applies to his supporters. what should americans do in that case, repeat the elections too? i don't believe they'll repeat this referendum, but it shocks me it's being even somewhat seriously debated.

 

 

I totally get your point and again, I share it. But I don't think you can draw parallels between those two situations. Americans who stand behind Trump are fully aware of what he stands for. He openly rambles about immigration policies, etc... So they're fully aware of his values (granted, they can be a bit flip-flopped, but that's another topic :creep: ) but what he's saying resonates within them. I see where this is similar but to me it's not the same thing.

 

The EU was an economical union that helped a wounded Europe to build itself back up after a devastating war. It ensured political stability, human rights, a stable commerce etc... Of course, some goals are utopic and it has shown its flaws more than once recently but that doesn't mean it's a greedy corporation. I think this decision was based on lack of knowledge. Do people even know how european laws are decided ? Brussels doesn't decide. The Commission puts a proposition on the table and then the Parliament and the Council debate on it, fighting for the interests of their countries and trying to find a consensus. It's amended when needed and it goes back and forth. As simple as that... 

 

Last year, I had a course on the EU in the Media (I'm not a political expert, I'm just a student in Communications) and it's very interesting how certain British medias decided to back certain politicians. If you take some of my relatives who live in England, they're fed this kind of crap and don't mind reading further nor doing some research. Welp... The majority has spoken. It doesn't affect me in the least, I'm Belgian, but I'm genuinely worried about how things are gonna turn out for the "United Kingdom", now. 


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#47 OFFLINE   bummersummer

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 02:35 PM

@BlueJeans i agree with parts of your comment, but not with others.

 

i don't think most Trump voters are truly aware of what electing him would represent for their country AND for them - exactly like in the UK, they're revolted against the status quo & being manipulated by a xenophobic/racist populist discourse that basically puts the real problems under the rug while not offering anything of substance as an alternative. so i don't think the vast majority of Trump voters are significantly better informed than Brexit ones, not least because Trump doesn't even have a clear or well-systematized ideology or plan of action. exactly like the UKIP on Brexit.

 

re: the EU. i think the UK didn't have legitimate reasons to leave - they were the 3rd most powerful economy in it, nothing about Brexit is gonna benefit them on an economic level & the anti-immigration / ~take our country back~ arguments are empty. they were in a comfortable position within the EU and made a mistake, or at the very least a really huge gamble. however i disagree that the EU is/has been beneficial to all its member countries lately (namely those with weaker, more unstable economies that were rendered even less stable by the introduction if the euro - now THAT was a huge mistake), and i'm absolutely against this current neo-liberal, undemocratic, alienated from its citizens & economy/society-destroying version of the EU. i'm in favor of its disintegration and reformation under different principles, because i don't think the EU as it now stands is salvageable. Brexit is in a large part the EU's fault, and if nothing is done to address their role in this + in the growing anti-EU sentiment all over Europe, the far-right is only going to continue to rise and we're going to have a very big neo-fascist problem very, very soon.



#48 OFFLINE   Princess Martini

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 04:32 PM

We could be witnessing the end of the UK. Considering that Scotland only narrowly voted to remain in the UK last referendum and overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU (which lost this round) expect them to bail.Other chunks like Gibraltar and Northern Ireland also apparently voted strongly to remain in the EU.I expect to see a surge in referendums which could leave us with just a Great Britain consisting of England and Wales.

 

Oh god what a terrible mess we've got ourselves into...  :facepalm:  :deadbanana:


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#49 OFFLINE   graham4anything

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:12 PM

In the US, Hillary is going to win a major landslide of epic proportions.

Trump has zero path to the 270 electoral votes needed, and his voters already are voting for him. This won't affect our election, in fact, if the UK's economy falters in the next few months, it actually

will mean more votes for Hillary. (and Hillary might pick Warren for VP which will solidify the vote even more. The US is looking at the biggest Democratic victory since 1964 when LBJ beat Goldwater

(and no, Hillary did not vote for Goldwater a Republican lie).

 

Trump's crowd are the racist old white males, however, due to the uniqueness of Hillary, their wives will vote for Hillary and women are 54% of the vote (not to mention all the groups that back the Democratic party, and the white male liberals like myself that only vote for the Democratic party.

 

So is the UK going to hold a 2nd vote, or will they in a few years beg to become a member (at the back of the line) of the EU again?

 

one thing to watch out for- Putin. He really should be overthrown. (Seems like he and Trump)

 

btw- speaking of trump - look at the articles showing that Roy Cohn was his mentor, Roy was part of one of the biggest atrocities in American history, the HUAC (House un-American committee, and one of Trump's short list of VPs, Newt Gingrich recently said they would want to bring back that. (that was responsible for the arrest and blacklisting of thousands of Jews and others for perceived communist ties(which is ironic in that Trump and Putin are tight).


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