The LanaBoards Book Club Revival (Currently Reading: Burnt Norton by T.S. Eliot)

[kraljicabenzinske]

hello my dearest bookworms

welcome to the revival of the LanaBoards book club

say it with me: ✨?this time we will make it ?✨

 

as you might know, the previous book club has failed and was cancelled without any notice, so I am your new book club hostess

 

Do you want to expand your horizons, tap into your imagination and learn about life? Are you worried about the rising trend in worldwide illiteracy and ask yourself "what can I do to fix it"? Are you tired of being a circuit queen instead of a highly sophisticated and well-educated homosexual? Do you feel dumb for not getting any of Lana's literary references? Is "reading more" on your New Year resolution every year, but you never get around to do it?

YOU'VE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE.

 

As you might remember, the first book picked for the previous book club was Lolita, but that never happened. Now, if this succeeds, we will keep picking the works together in the future, BUT since this is the first reading round, we can get straight to work. That way we can all see how this will function, how much time we will need, and what will the discussion look like. That's why the first work that I picked is very short so we can test things out. And then later we can move onto bigger stuff like novels etc.

Our first work is...

BURNT NORTON BY T.S. ELIOT

 

"Burnt Norton" is the first out of four poems from T.S. Eliot's 1943 Four Quartets. Considered one of the 20th century's major poets, T.S. Eliot is a central figure in English-language Modernist poetry. He had the honor of his "Burnt Norton" being featured on Lana's album Honeymoon as an interlude. Lana only sampled the intro to the poem, but it is actually a bit longer.

 

The entirety of Four Quartets is available in PDF here:

http://www.lettersjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/fourquartets.pdf

(please don't ban me for piracy, miss Eliot is dead he's not getting any coin anyways)

WHAT DO WE READ?

We only read the Burnt Norton for now (fell free to read to read other poems too if you want I'm not gonna stop you); and as you can see, it's only 5 pages.

WHEN DO WE READ IT?

Literally right now. Open the PDF and read it, it takes like 3 minutes.

WHAT IS YOUR CONTRIBUTION?

As soon as you're done reading the poem, share your opinions, thoughts, views, questions, ideas, analysis, respond to other people's posts, anything!

In order to help you out, I came up with some questions that can get the discussion going:

 

BURNT NORTON DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

1. Why do you think Lana sampled Burnt Norton on Honeymoon? Is the poem's theme, message or lyrical style in anyway related to Honeymoon or Lana's art, lyricism and poetry in general?
2. Did you like the poem; why or why not? Do you like the language and the writing style?
3. Do you find the poem to be complex? In order to simplify it, what is the poem's central topic or message to your understanding?
4. The poem dates back to 1943, being almost 80 years old. Why could it be relevant to the modern day-reader? Did you see any ideas that are applicable to the modern world?
5. Is there any part that touched you, any part that is your favorite? You can copy the quote and discuss it.
6. Take a look at the poem's opening lines (Time present and time past / Are both perhaps present in time future, / And time future contained in time past), and the closing lines are (Ridiculous the waste sad time / Stretching before and after). How do you interpret this? Is there any connection? Do you think the opening and the ending summarize the poem's central idea?
7. What images came to your mind as you were reading the poem?

Of course you don't have to answer those, we're not in school?, but you can if you don't have any ideas what to write about; like I sad - share with us anything you want!

 

Let's have fun! ❤️

also if this thread flops, my account was hacked

[prettywhenimhigh]

kraljicabenzinske really said WE WILL READ BITCHES 

reading the pdf rn

[kraljicabenzinske]

2 minutes ago, prettywhenimhigh said:

kraljicabenzinske really said WE WILL READ BITCHES 

reading the pdf rn

like I said, we can't let it flop this time!

also lemme tag the people that I see were on board for the previous book club: @DCooper, @marinasrep, @prettywhenimhigh, @Pretty On The Indide, @NikoGo, @DeadSeaOfMercury, @takemetothegasstation, @niandra lades, @Fingertips, @Surf Noir, @The Siren, @SalvaWHORE, @Alison by Slowdive and @American Whore (sorry i stole the book club from you).

I'm tagging u guys just so you can see this. Spread the word if anyone is missing. So feel free to join the discussion right away if you still want to be a part of the book club! ❤️

 

 

[Pnin]

Yessss I’m in! 

[Francesco Carrozzini]

I love this idea ! I am familiar with T. S. Eliot only because of Lana and his cat poems  and I've always wanted to read his other stuff but didn't get around to it, guess now it's the time

[Fingertips]

YES PLEASE

 

I love Eliot. Also, I have tons of resources to share with you all

[Eugene]

"Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened
Into the rose-garden. My words echo
Thus, in your mind."

 

One of my favorite quotes of all time. 

 

[ImenaOphelia]

Quote

Words move, music moves
Only in time; but that which is only living
Can only die.

This may become one of my favorite quotes of all time

[Venice Jesus Whore]

Omg this is like one of the coolest ideas I've seen on LB. I love this!

[MagicalTrancePotion]

Quote

What might have been is an abstraction

Remaining a perpetual possibility

Only in a world of speculation

 

These lines in particular makes my mind go crazy with different outcomes to situations that have happened and different possibilities of things that could happen. I could down down a rabbit hole for hours just from this.

[Liz Taylor Blues]

Yes! For real this time!! I love TS Elliot

[MagicalTrancePotion]

Quote

And the bird called, in response to

The unheard music hidden in the shrubbery,

And the unseen eyebeam crossed, for the roses

Had the look of flowers that are looked at

 

This part makes me think of Honeymoon a lot. It's an album that's overlooked. It's meant to be listened to with a purpose, but I think it takes effort to really appreciate Honeymoon, but when you do find it and take that time with it, it's beautiful.

[kraljicabenzinske]

I discovered Burnt Norton through Lana (ofc) and it's been my favorite poem since I first read it  few years ago. It even inspired me to read some essay about time (can't remember the title), but it essentially supported what Eliot says here; which is that there is no present, past or the future because time is not linear. Idk how to talk about this to not get into being too deep or philosophical, but I think what he's trying to say that there is no use of worrying about what was or what will be because all the time is already "written", everything already happened, the "future" is just the part of the time that hasn't played out yet. In other words, we cannot change the past or the future. And this is why the closing line says "Ridiculous the waste sad time, stretching before and after." And that's basically all what people do most of the time; if you pay attention, you spend most of your day thinking about past or future - instead of "living in the moment." This is why I find this poem very modern and relevant today, it makes me think of all these notions of spirituality and the idea of healing through learning how to let go of past and future, and transcending the time, i.e. living in the moment.

 

Also I think there's an interesting connection to Lana's Honeymoon. On the album, Religion comes after Burn Norton, and I think BN can be viewed as intro to religion.

Everything is fine now
Let's sleeping dog's lay
All our minds made up now
All our beds are made
No one's out of time, no
Chips fall where they may
Leave it all behind, let the ocean wash away

 

I see this being connected to Burnt Norton, especially the "all our minds made up now, all our beds are made" - meaning that your destiny is already determined; inability to change the past or the future.

 

I think that in the second verse, she accepted that there's no use of "stretching before and after" when she says No need to survive now / All we do is play, because she no longer worries about the past or the future, i.e. she no longer worries about survival, she lets go and just lives.  And I think this is very interesting because it's key to one's happiness.

 

The only question is I don't really see the chorus of Religion being connected to BN lol  I always though it was just a song about  her worshiping someone she loves like God.

 

 

[MagicalTrancePotion]

I love that @kraljicabenzinske started this and chose "Burnt Norton" as the first work. I've been meaning to read this for years! I feels ethereal, beautiful, mysterious, but also dangerous, just like Honeymoon. I think that's why Lana chose to include it.

 

The rest of my collected thoughts as I was reading part I:

 

Quote

Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,

And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight,

And the lotos rose, quietly, quietly

 

I had to look up lotos. My takeaway is that it's a fruit that if eaten puts you in a pleasant dreamlike state. Again, it feels forbidden, but very tempting. Everything in reality was boring and ugly, but the sunlight came in giving hope. Maybe the lotos represent the hope and the ability to dream.

 

Quote

Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.

Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,

Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.

Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind Cannot bear very much reality.

 

Just like that the dream passed. Reality set in. I haven't read part II yet, but it feels like a set up to go deeper into the garden as a way to run from reality.

 

Quote

Point to one end, which is always present.

 

The last line is a repetition, so maybe it's a reminder that dreams are just dreams. Time is a dimension just like what we think of as space and the physical world. I could go into the math of this. I'll spare everyone from that, but time is linear and this makes me think Eliot believes everything has already been decided and played out, so what's the point in dreaming? The single end point will always be there, lingering, no matter how hard you dream.

[American Whore]

1 hour ago, kraljicabenzinske said:

like I said, we can't let it flop this time!

also lemme tag the people that I see were on board for the previous book club: @DCooper, @marinasrep, @prettywhenimhigh, @Pretty On The Indide, @NikoGo, @DeadSeaOfMercury, @takemetothegasstation, @niandra lades, @Fingertips, @Surf Noir, @The Siren, @SalvaWHORE, @Alison by Slowdive and @American Whore (sorry i stole the book club from you).

I'm tagging u guys just so you can see this. Spread the word if anyone is missing. So feel free to join the discussion right away if you still want to be a part of the book club! ❤️

 

 

 

it's totally okay!! i was really hoping in the new year i could see if anyone would want to take it over. i've had a lot to take care of and didn't have the time that i thought i would. i hate that it ended up flopping  

but i'm so down for someone to take it over and try again bc it could still be super fun <3 

[MagicalTrancePotion]

30 minutes ago, kraljicabenzinske said:

I discovered Burnt Norton through Lana (ofc) and it's been my favorite poem since I first read it  few years ago. It even inspired me to read some essay about time (can't remember the title), but it essentially supported what Eliot says here; which is that there is no present, past or the future because time is not linear. 

 

 

I'd be really interested in reading the essay if you ever find it again.

[kraljicabenzinske]

9 minutes ago, MagicalTrancePotion said:

but time is linear and this makes me think Eliot believes everything has already been decided and played out, so what's the point in dreaming? The single end point will always be there, lingering, no matter how hard you dream.

yes, this is exactly what I wanted to say in my post too! honestly the idea of dreaming being pointless sound horrific because i think everyone loves to dream and imagine a better future for themselves, but that's how we ultimately set ourselves up for a disappointment: Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind / Cannot bear very much reality. We cannot bear reality because of these dreams we set up for ourselves

[honeybadger]

i love the transition from burnt norton to religion —

 

Footfalls echo in the memory

Down the passage which we did not take Towards the door we never opened

Into the rose-garden. 

 

to 

 

“Everything is fine now” etc
 

Spoiler

 

to me, burnt norton serves as a metaphor within lana, within honeymoon, moving in her memory down a “passage we did not take, towards the door we never opened”. she’s trying to explore alternate possibilities of reality if she made different choices, moving (thematically) into the “rose garden” — an idyllic place, like the garden of eden, glorified and built into something we idolize but do not truly know, the perfect place which reality will never compare to. 

 

the first line of religion fits in so beautifully with this idea; “everything is fine now / everything is bright now” in this perfect alternate reality. religion, to me, is a song about what could’ve been and all the missed opportunities in a relationship — wishing for something that can never be true, holding on to love desperately. it also feels like it’s about changing the reality of a current relationship — all her friends urge her to leave, but she is telling herself the relationship is perfect, and that she cannot exist without him. they can stay in the eye of the storm, where everything has the illusion of being calm, and pretend that reality is different — but in the end, the relationship falls apart. 

 

salvatore also has a sort of “dream state” energy to it — like drifting through this ethereal, beautiful memory or “fictional” memory.

 

and yet, her efforts to dream are futile, and her love falls apart, as you can hear in 24 and the blackest day. 

 

there’s so much more there, but burnt norton really imparts so much meaning on honeymoon as a whole to me. it wouldn’t be the same without it in so many ways, and it’s a beautiful poem 

[MagicalTrancePotion]

My thoughts on part II:

 

Quote

Garlic and sapphires in the mud

Clot the bedded axle-tree.

 

Garlic is used for protection. After a little research I found that sapphires were worn for guidance. If I'm looking at the right thing, an axel-tree is just a rod that connects two wheels. I love the imagery I initially got of a huge tree with deeply bedded roots, but nothing is actually growing here. The carriage that the axletree was connected to can't move anymore. Real life can't move forward if you're always dreaming, and in your dreams there's no outside source for protection and guidance.

 

Quote

The trilling wire in the blood

Sings below inveterate scars

Appeasing long forgotten wars.

 

The adrenaline that I got from the first several lines of part I rises to the surface, to the stars even. Eliot uses words like blood, artery, and circulation to describe where the thrill of dreaming is taking place. All of these are crucial for human life, and dreaming could be crucial too, mentally.

 

It actually makes me think of the Lust for Life trailer where Lana is overlooking everything, but mentions that the still likes to go out into the muck and mires of the city.

 

Quote

Ascend to summer in the tree

 

We were in autumn, but the axel is moving again and we've gone forward or backward to summer. I'm not sure if we're in the past or future, but I think the point is that it doesn't matter. We're in a point in time and a point doesn't have direction.

 

Quote

I can only say, there we have been: but I cannot say where.

And I cannot say, how long, for that is to place it in time.

 

It makes me feel like I really am floating with the stars in no particular direction, needs, or desires.

 

I'm still a little confused by the end of Part II.

[Francesco Carrozzini]

I'm loving this thread, you guys are so smart 

Religion is probably my favorite Lana song, and I always loved the way BN fades into it. Now that I've read the poem itself and also read a little bit about it, here's my 2 cents

Spoiler

 

Before the poem there's this epigraph that reads "Although logos is common to all, most people live as if they had a wisdom of their own." Since the quote is from an ancient greek philospher, logos refers to wisdom, but it was borrowed by Christianity to designate Jesus' Word (pure wisdom). That made me think of Religion coming right after BN - perhaps Lana wishes to live this romance with someone and not feel guilty about loving them so unconditionally, like christians love Christ and vice-versa, as she feels that loving someone that much is seen as a weakness by modern day society, but it's actually the natural way of things; but that has been clouded by excessive reason, which is not the same thing as wisdom. 

 

Then, the first scene of the poem is a dreamlike sequence, with a rose garden, birds, pools and other natural imagery. I believe Lana chose this specific part mainly because of the aesthetics, but also as a way to reflect on time and eternity. I think it's interesting how Lana stops reading right before "My words echo thus, in your mind" ---> I think UV and HM are her most melancholic albums, often reflecting about the past, being dissatisfied with the present, and expressing fear for the future, spefically growing old, losing beauty and being forgotten. She's afraid that after she's gone, no one will remember her. So she doesn't want to care anymore and decides to live life more hedonistically - thus Religion and Salvatore are about enjoying life and indulging in pleasure, and Swan Song is about ultimately giving in and being free.

 

Then the third scene narrates a very gloomy and souless place (that turns to be the London Underground), where people move even though they're standing still. In my opinion the contrast between this 2 scenes is so fucking cool. I think Lana is at the same time fascinated and scared by technology (a theme she explored a lot more on NFR and some poems from Violet), and this part of the poem made me think of that).