Anthem

you put this so eloquently. I wasn't a hardcore stan during UV-LFL so its so interesting to hear about ppl's reactions when the tracklists & album covers first came out

Ha, I find it so interesting now that people think Ultraviolence is the greatest thing, because when it first came out there was a significant amount of people that were underwhelmed. Coming off of the BTD/P era, UV was much more low-key and the production wasn't this big grand polished work of art the way BTD/P was, and we certainly did not get the same level of videos and promo. Compared to the eras since, UV seems like a dream now. 

It seems like almost every time some kind of detestable information has leaked it has turned out to be true, so I am nervous about these lyrics. They stylistically do fit in with what we've heard, and I feel like there are risky choices that were made if someone was trying to be deceptive. No one thought the tracklists for UV or LFL were real until she announced them because of titles like "Sad Girl" and "Heroin", no one believed the HM cover at first, no one believed Coachella would be on the album, etc. Who knows what is real at this point for NFR, but I won't discount the possibility until I officially see otherwise.

I really hope these lyrics aren't real because the potential racial implications would probably be enough for me to abandon her on the spot, and that's after 7+ years of being a huge fan. If I had only seen the HIADT lyrics beforehand and read the "black narcissist" line, I may not have believed that either but here we are. While that was questionable word choice and just vague enough to give her the benefit of the doubt, these new lyrics are not. They would be at best willful ignorance and at worst outright racism and I can't support either explanation for something so important.

I've warmed up a lot to L+F. Its catchy feel-good pop which is not what Marina has given us before, but it still resonates with me more than what most other artists that put out music like this bring to the table. I've found that while I love Marina for her dark depressive music, I do have room in my musical palette for music that is more upbeat and happy, and I am glad that Marina is now an artist I can go to when I am both deeply upset and feeling super positive. I feel like I've grown with her in that way. L+F is a little over the top and cheesy in some places, but she's got plenty of music on the opposite side of the spectrum that is overly dramatic in its sadness. I think it is just easier to criticize happy music because its less risk for the artist rather than when they pour out the dark spaces in their souls. As a writer myself, I can also attest that it is so much harder to make not-corny happy music than it seems. 

My best Marina moments (both for the music and in general)

Pre-TFJ/Unreleased

• Starlight lyrics and those crazy chords
• Silver Walls chorus
• Daddy was a sailor lyrics
• The premise of Pancake Karma
• All of Scab & Plaster
• Chorus of I'm Not Hungry Anymore
• Miss Y
• The video of her nervously performing Obsessions to a crowd of like two in 2008
• Please Don't Call Me chorus

TFJ

• "Savor the taste of fabricated wealth"
• "CUCKOO"
• Second verse of Obsessions
• Instrumental break and "oh ah ah"s after second chorus of Obsessions
• "I'm a fucking WIIIILD card"
• Last chorus and out of Numb
• "Cause I feel like I'm the worst so I always act like I'm the best"

EH

• "I'm gonna pop your bubblegum heart" + first chorus (really first half of the song)
• Homewrecker bridge
• "You don't love me. Big fucking deal"
• "Question what a pop star sells you" soooo clever
• Teen idle bridge
• "Now I die slow"/the whole prechorus of VOTD
• Bridge of Hypocrates is underrated imo
• HTBAHB video
• All of FAL
• Sparkly synth in Living Dead
• Bridge of BTS
• LHC
• EVOL on Valentine's Day
• Su-barbie-a video
• The final video with all the tracks together and title track
• How many other songs/demos we got
• The fact she sang Teen Idle to elementary kids

Froot

• Bg vocals on Happy
• the whole fucking title track 
• The guitars and synths for IAR
• Blue piano riff
• GMA performance of Forget
• "Back up motherfucker"
• Solitaire bridge
• "ahhhhhHH AHHH AH AH AH AHHH" at the end of Savages
• That spooling sound right before Immortal's chorus drops
• "So keep me alive"
• The fact that she gave us the chords and lyrics sheets to every FOTM
• Her Froot outfit at that Boston show (the blue sparkly outfit and blue cherry headband)

L+F

• Last chorus of HH
• "So enjoy your life"
• TBH bridge
• "End of the, end of the" bg vocals
• Synths in EM (what she used for the trailer)
• STBS

I think Savages and To Be Human touch on two slightly different things. Savages is purely about the horrible things that people do. To Be Human is more about trying to find the meaning in all of the savagery, and is a bit more existential. I interpreted the Lenin line to show how people of power still die one day, and the vain attempts of people to outlive their own deaths. I really like the line about "gold leaf hides the damages," it shows that underneath the facades of the world there is a lot that is broken, and how hard we try to cover that up. I think To Be Human is kind of the next step after Savages and to some degree Immortal. 

As to her meltdowns, I think its the opposite of a huge ego, else she would just brush everything off. I think she is really fragile and probably saw releasing an album as this huge spiritual healing process. When she got backlash, it probably crushed whatever confidence she was building back up. I'm sure making something you love and feel like "represents" you only for it to be trashed is not a great feeling. And I wonder if she feels like being an artist is her biggest accomplishment and is feeling extra bad that she seemingly failed at that this time around. I'm just speculating so I don't know, but I do think she needs to get herself on more solid ground before releasing again if that is the case.

Or we are all just reading too much into her posts, which is probably the most likely explanation

I randomly listen to songs by local LA pop girls and this one.. wow. 

 

GUYS

 

 

This & the thank you to Lana in her album booklet is kinda sad since Lana has posted about albums before and after Marina's release but said nothing about Love + Fear. Granted, Lana does post personal stuff about Marina periodically, but to not mention her first album in 4 years when they are supposedly so important to each other... pretty shady :/

Edit: so strange how I have liked Marina more as a person over the past few years, yet not liked her music as much, but have had the inverse experience with Lana. 

Regardless of how her instagram post may come off, I appreciate how openly she shows her vulnerable, flawed human side. She doesn't have all of the answers and I think she acknowledges that and is just trying to make sense of it all. Its so.. special? heartbreaking? to watch someone go through what she has and be so open to so many strangers about it. I feel like she is being genuine and heartfelt. I admire her, I really do. 

I appreciate the discussion y'all! 

@longtimeman I totally agree with you that extreme gatekeeping is bad and annoying, but I think my point is that I do see value in preserving what "goth" (or any subculture) means. And it really is just being a fan of the music, period, not even wearing black and definitely not having to be in the UK in the 80s. I appreciate young people experimenting and I think that its awesome and should be encouraged! But as I mentioned before, for me, misrepresentation of what the subculture actually is caused me to reject it for a while when I was a teen/early 20s, which is a personal reason I do think it is important to educate people that don't know and want to get involved, but obviously in a friendly and encouraging way. 

@trayertrash

First of all, I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. I feel your pain as well, as my two main genres are goth/death rock and pop. I'm fortunate enough that every time I've had a discussion about it with other goths that they've pretty much said no one really cares and there is no "goth point" system. It sucks that that hasn't been your experience though :/ Also didn't know you were goth  If you have any underground bands/songs you recommend and have a kinda cinematic quality to them let me know, I'm always hunting around. 

 

 

Most folks aren't going out of their way digging into the music, fashion & history of a subculture to seem cool or whatever.

I agree for the music and history part, but for goth in particular you tend to see more people just like the fashion/wearing black, call themselves goth, and ignore everything else, which is pretty annoying for a music-based subculture. There are asshole elitists out there, but also kids that say "well I'm Wicca and wear black so I'm goth and I don't care about the music". But that is directly against what goth is. Alternative in general kind of trendy right now.

The 'Is this real Goth?' conversation is just never ending. I remember back in the late 80s when my sister and her friends went to Goth clubs, they used to get shit from the 'real' goths there for liking music other than The Cure/Sisters/Bauhaus, and those idiots were thought of as 'poseurs' by the goths from the early 80s, and it kept on going further and further back until the only 'real' goth was a guy who met Robert Smith once and flipped him off for being a sell out 

Ya it really is still a hot topic unfortunately. I can't speak for what it was like in the late 80s but nowadays I think most goths would call those people assholes for harassing others about their music choices (probably unless the person said they were goth without liking the music). I think they are so protective because of this truth right here:

 

 

some [p]eople think anything slightly alternative or dark is just goth

Imagine if every time a person or celebrity wore a black band tee and blue jeans that they were automatically labeled a "metalhead" and people made assumptions about their religion/interests or think they are more likely to commit crimes. Imagine people who only listen to pop music call themselves "metalheads" because they wear black boots and have a nose piercing. Sure its harmless, but get enough of those people "representing" the subculture and being a "metalhead" eventually doesn't mean anything about the music. That doesn't happen too much for metal (that I know of) since that term is pretty specific, but since "goth" gets confused with "gothic" (oh boy ) which gets mixed up with horror in general, I think that is why "goth" in particular gets so misused and why the people in the community are so fiercely protective. 

It is such a messy subculture, particularly on the internet. I know I've wrote a few short novels here, mostly just to give a perspective, but I do find humor in how outrageous and serious some goths get about what the "true" definition is. Like I said, that is just not a real thing if you go to goth events (unless you get guys like the NIN dude I posted about earlier ha)

I think I also personally care too much because for a long time, I rejected goth because of some of the usual assumptions around it, but had I known what the music was actually like I would have gotten into it and fell in love a lot sooner. As it is, I only found the subculture because one day I was like "well I like Tim Burton and Poe so am I goth?". The answer was... no lul, but then I discovered and liked the music and enjoyed it. So that's kind of why I always feel compelled to talk about it, because I'd love to turn someone who has the wrong notion of what goth is into a Bauhaus fan 

Obviously I am preaching to the choir here tho  If I DO ever have this conversation with someone (its maybe happened once in 2 years because it is really so trivial), I try to be nice and helpful about it rather than judgmental. I kinda can't blame people for not knowing when it is pretty widely misused.

As for other rock music, I think Pink Floyd is everything that music should be (I know - original right?). Echoes is my favorite song of all time! I like more of their earlier work, from Piper to probably The Wall. I also like Blue Oyster Cult (particularly Spectres) and I've been kinda getting into Black Sabbath/Ozzy lately. 

I went through a brief (2 week) grunge phase, and by grunge I mean just two albums - Nevermind and Live Through This. They are my musical outlet when I just want to feel pissed. 

My other rock tastes are pretty all over the place. My dad was super into 80s music so I grew up with a lot of the bands that were popular then, but I get a little uneasy that those guys were sleeping with 14 year olds on tour half the time (and sometimes singing about it). Its also annoying that 50 year old men think that is the only good music that ever has been or will be. -_-

Also, my boyfriend has me semi-into pop punk, but I have to skip around a ton on his playlist. His favorite band is The Wonder Years, which I like a bit. Its all about the songs themselves in that genre for me tho (and really any genre I don't typically listen to). I also learned from him that I am NOT into ska. The instrumentals make me panic internally because they are just too fast. It is like my ears are having a seizure. 

@@trayertrash @@Ultra Violet

Totally agree with you guys, though I haven't personally met many people who hate those bands just because of the confusion. I see more complaints about the people using the term "goth" for anything that is even remotely dark and spooky. I see people call Billie Eilish goth ffs   I blame the media really though. There is also lots of complaining about how people who don't like the music but like the fashion label themselves as goth. The goth community is really protective of itself, and in lots of cases are a bunch of assholes about it, but its really annoying to say "I am goth" and have the average person assume you are Satanic, read Edgar Allan Poe, and are dead inside.   I had some frat guy try to dance with me at a goth bar once and tell me all about how much he loves goth music... aka Nine Inch Nails lmao. 

I will get off my goth soapbox because I even annoy myself talking about this and I think its mostly an internet/Instagram phenomena anyways. I've never heard any goth IRL give a shit about any of this but maybe that's because my goth friends are older and we tend to hang out at actual shows/events catered towards us. Anyways stream First and Last and Always 

Also gonna leave this here for the laughs. I was just starting to get into Ariana when I saw this and was like "omg this girl" but I got over it in like 2 seconds. Her impression of Amy Lee is pretty good. 

This just has me so mesmerized

I'm goth so:

Sisters of Mercy

Bauhaus

Siouxie and the Banshees

The Cure

Christian Death (love love love Rozz Williams, RIP)

She Wants Revenge (ya I know  )

etc.

... and a bunch of local goth rock/death rock bands in SoCal. I used to be in a goth band so I got involved with the local scene. 

I get triggered when people say Marilyn Manson and Evanescence are goth     I know I'm being annoying but it is such a misused word. 

I was thinking about the tracklist and I think I would have ordered it more like this:

LOVE

1. Handmade Heaven
2. Orange Trees
3. Enjoy Your Life
4. Life is Strange
5. True
6. Baby
7. Superstar (swap production with Too Afraid)
8. End of the Earth

FEAR

1. To Be Human
2. Emotional Machine
3. You
4. Karma
5. No More Suckers (or replace with Please Don’t Call Me and put as #3)
6. Too Afraid
7. Believe in Love
8. Soft to be Strong

To Be Human would have been an amazing opener for Fear, and I don't know why EM is so far back in the list. Same with EYL. Also, I am just so bothered by how Superstar is produced. I think if it had more upbeat production like Too Afraid, then it would have been better. Conversely, I think Too Afraid with a more delicate production would have been more impactful. Life is Strange sounds hopeful/accepting and I think could go on the LOVE side. I think I am in the minority that did not like the You demo? I thought the big "you!" sounded so Kidz Bop and cheesy.  Please Don't Call Me overshadows these songs so much that it would have been distracting. True/Baby/Karma/No More Suckers could have been cut or replaced imo. If she had reworked INHA with this sound I think it could have replaced a weaker FEAR song. 

Love Marina and am always going to be here for her music, but its only been a week and I rarely come back to anything on this album besides Handmade Heaven, Emotional Machine, and a few others (and PDCM). Not that its bad, just not my taste, so I'll be perched for the next. 

I am so proud that Fear hasn't leaked. I am dying of excitement! I thought she'd release songs off of Fear before it released but I am actually kind of glad she didn't! I hope she has as much planned for Fear after the release as she did for Love. I'm hyped as hell for Emotional Machine - the instrumental in the trailer was so simple but heavenly. 

This record was so important. There was simply nothing like being a fan during Born to Die. I know people say that Ultraviolence is the better album, and maybe it is, but I don't think it has the sheer impact that Born to Die (and Paradise) have had and if she had released Ultraviolence first I don't think she would have been the artist she is today. The instrumentals on both are pure lush heaven. This is still her defining album years later.

My rank, but really its just so hard. I turned 18 right after Born to Die released, and each of the songs is just its own pack of really strong memories as I finished up high school and went to college. My first exposure to her and a few of the songs was via music videos, so it is nearly impossible for me to separate some songs from their visuals. The original Blue Jeans video is maybe my favorite of all time.

1. Off to the Races
2. National Anthem
3. Born to Die
4. Summertime Sadness
5. Video Games
6. Blue Jeans
7. Lolita
8. Without You
9. Radio
10. Million Dollar Man
11. This is What Makes Us Girls
12. Carmen
13. Dark Paradise
14. Lucky Ones
15. Diet Mountain Dew

Diet Mountain Dew is so low because for the first year I knew Lana I thought one of the demos was the final version and I loved it so much, the vibe was so perfect especially after the tranquility of Video Games. Hearing the album version made me die a little.

Wow this thread made me remember how I so loved Lana back then. She was so quirky and had such an alternative vibe to her. She was the first real pop star, or really any band/artist, that I ever hardcore liked and she made me want to start singing and become my own artist. This was the first album I ever bought a physical copy of. I love it and I love who she was during this era. I'm sad that this Lana does not nor will ever exist again.

omfg I was literally sitting on the patio at Alfred's Coffee like 24 hours before this was taken. You can see the ledge of it across from those umbrellas. Imagine 

Do we know what song this ended up being, if any of them? This was my favorite snippet even if it was just instrumental.

1. We should not assume that just because a song does not go on the immediate album after it is written that she has no plans to ever release it.

2. Whether or not a song was intended to be released or not has no impact on how ethical it is to obtain and leak any material.

Favorite Songs:

1. Handmade Heaven
2. Froot
3. Obsessions
4. EVOL
5. Starlight
6. I'm Not Hungry Anymore
7. Electra Heart
8. Bubblegum Bitch
9. Lonely Hearts Club

Honorables:

1. I'm a Ruin
2. Are You Satisfied
3. Silver Walls
4. Scab & Plaster
5. Miss Y
6. Su-Barbie-A

Imagine wanting her album to leak... Also her decision to release LOVE "before moving on to FEAR", to me, implies she is going to release at least a few more songs/videos form the Fear side. I think the next few weeks will go by fast with a steady stream of things to keep us going. 

The bridge of To Be Human sounded so quirky TFJ Marina. Like an old friend visiting, and it made me nostalgic.

My feeling about LOVE is weird. Its not the kind of music I like, but I also don't think that means anything about the quality. I think she did what she set out do. Its awesome that she is so happy. For artists like Lana and Marina who kind of built their careers on songs with pretty heavy topics, I think seeing them be able to make happy music now gives some people hope that there is a way to overcome the bad stuff in life. 

(Not personal to you Cacciatore - I could've picked 10 different posts on the last few pages that are like this)

I think Norman Fucking Rockwell will be the first album Lana didn't really "experiment" like her previous ones. 

 

She put out a 9 minute song with transitions and psychedelic elements.

 

 

From what we've heard most of the album will be heavy piano influenced with some trap beats, and we've heard that from her before. I hope some of the other songs have synths or whatever because as for now she's giving us more of the same. 

Where?

 

 

I feel like she reached her peak and should take a long ass break to get to know new things, new styles, experiment and come back with a kick ass fresh album. Her lyrics are also going nowhere, if she took some time to LIVE and get to know new people and places then she could write about these new experiences and serve something new lyrically. 

Half this thread is bitching about her new friends and lifestyle and how she is living her life instead of putting the album out.

....The other half is a mixture of "why is there no news?" and "she should have just kept quiet". She clearly can't release the album - what do you guys want? She can either give you more info, which she either doesn't have, will be wrong, or will set you guys off again about how she should've kept quiet, or she can continue being quiet which will also piss you guys off. She's already said she doesn't know when its coming. Obviously she could have waited to release music and she could not have given a timeframe for release (however vague it was), but at this point it is what it is and she seemingly can't win no matter what she does going forward.

I am actually not much of a fan these days but when I do read this board and see so much complaining its just so old. How many ways can you guys complain about the same things for months on end? The speculation is what is driving you all crazy, to the point where I think some of you have lost touch with what is even real (see above). There are so many artists out there creating amazing music, with so much of it going unheard, maybe this is a great chance to dive into a new artist or genre you don't know and let go of whatever drives you to stick around here and make yourselves miserable. 

You are all ruining the era for yourself.

This is 100% a matter of my own taste because I know of several other instances where this occurs and it works, but one thing that I find "off" about Superstar is that I just don't think the lyrics match the vibe of the song or her vocal delivery. She, and the song itself, sound so sad. I really kind of forget that the song is actually about being in a happy relationship. If the lyrics matched the emotion of the song or vice versa, I think I would be feeling it a lot more.

I loved Handmade Heaven so much, I am actually sad that she said the rest of the album won't be like it. It was so lush and cinematic, and just more polished than I've ever heard her. I am excited for Emotional Machine like, a lot actually. I'm not big on Baby or the You snippet, but there's still so much more to the album and some really interesting and promising titles. This does feel like a natural progression from Froot, which I feel like was a natural step from TFJ, so I get it. I think my tastes are diverging a bit from where she (and Lana) are going, but I will always be perched for their new music and try to be supportive and open-minded. 

I don't see anywhere to buy LA tickets  

Lost Painting, Moonlight Nocturne, Dracula's Castle are my highlights, but honestly just let the whole thing play.