Cinnamon Girl versus Happiness is a Butterfly

[Rorman Nockwell 56,493]

@@movebaby and I will now stage an (in)formal debate about which song is better: Cinnamon Girl or Happiness is a Butterfly.

 

Of course, supporting arguments from other participants are welcome, but only if you are of the correct opinion that Cinnamon Girl is better than Happiness is a Butterfly. Otherwise, please leave.

 

So SHE thinks HIAB is better and SHE'S wrong.

 

Additionally, SHE isn't allowed to talk about technical piano stuff, because SHE knows about piano stuff and I don't and it isn't fair. Therefore, the debate will be about everything else.

 

So anyway, Cinnamon Girl is far better than Happiness is a Butterfly.

 

HIAB revolves around a butterfly metaphor, which is both overused and flawed. I mean, Pearl Jam did that back in like 1994 with Even Flow, and it didn't need to be done again.

 

Happiness is a butterfly
Try to catch it like every night
It escapes from my hands into moonlight
Every day is a lullaby
I hum it on the phone like every night
And sing it for my babies on the tour life
Ah ah

 

So, first of all, nobody catches butterflies at night. I mean, good luck finding one? So either Lanz was holding one captive during daylight hours only to release it at night, and/or she's on some starlit expedition in the wilderness disturbing poor, sleeping butterflies at night. In other words, it's just stupid.

 

As I said on another thread, it should've been called "Happiness is a Firefly" because fireflies come out at night. Butterflies? No. The entire premise is flawed.

 

Also, what do lullabies have to do with butterflies? Lullabies are happy, sleep-inducing songs. So is every day a lullaby because sis is exhausted from chasing butterflies in the wilderness all night long? Make it make sense.

 

Let's not even talk about that "tour babies" line because it's simply vile.

 

Happiness is a butterfly
We should catch it while dancing
I lose myself in the music, baby
Every day is a lullaby
Try to catch it like lightning
I sing it into my music, I'm crazy

 

So now she's trying to catch the lullaby like lightning? What?

 

If he's a serial killer, then what's the worst
That could happen to a girl who's already hurt?
 

Gee, I don't know, Lanz. Maybe you could be horrifically murdered?

 

Okay and not only does the song suddenly and inexplicably become obnoxiously loud when she sings the following lines, it's also overused Jackoff garbage.

 

I said, "don't be a jerk, don't call me a taxi"
Sitting in your sweatshirt, crying in the backseat
Ooh

 

I don't even remember which songs have some bitch sitting in the back of a taxi but I'm pretty sure he put similar lines in songs he did with Lorde and St Vincent.

 

I'll let @@movebaby present a lyrical counter-argument now and then I'll put her in her place.

[13bitches 6,176]

Cinnamon God ftw

[movebaby 5,379]

to open, i shall link a quote from anna pavlova, who was quite literally my idol when i was younger: https://pioneerthinking.com/happiness-is-like-a-butterfly-anna-pavlova

 

as you can see, the reference, while clumsily used, is not merely something lana pulled out of her ass; it refers to the mercurial nature of happiness in terms of fame and being a performer. so there.

 

the moonlight part requires some suspension of disbelief. its not about literally catching butterflies at night, rorman, give me a break. its about the fact that her shows take place at night, and onstage she's chasing happiness, which is fleeting like a butterfly. see where this is all headed? also, goth butterflies are a Concept. 

 

lullaby=soothes distress. you sing a lullaby to a crying baby to make it calm down.

 

the serial killer question is RHETORICAL RORMAN HAVE YOU NO RESPECT FOR NUANCE (plus its a way more effective version of the "hold me without hurting me" shit)

 

i'm not going to talk about "technical piano stuff," i'm just gonna say that HIAB sounds like an actual piano and CG sounds like jacks nasty digital keyboard, as per my analysis in the NFR thread    also you can check my analysis for a breakdown of the respective production 

 

as for the cinnamon lyrics, i will not be breaking them down. i'm just going to copy and paste them here, because i strongly believe they speak for (against) themselves.......

 

[Verse 1]
Cinnamon in my teeth
From your kiss, you're touching me
All the pills that you take
Violet, blue, green, red to keep me at arm's length don't work
You try to push me out, but I just find my way back in
Violet, blue, green, red to keep me out, I win

[Chorus]
There's things I wanna say to you, but I'll just let you live
Like if you hold me without hurting me
You'll be the first who ever did
There's things I wanna talk about, but better not to give
But if you hold me without hurting me
You'll be the first who ever did

[Post-Chorus]
Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah
Hold me, love me, touch me, honey
Be the first who ever did
Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah
Hold me, love me, touch me, honey
Be the first who ever did

[Verse 2]
Kerosene in my hands
You make me mad, on fire again
All the pills that you take
Violet, blue, green, red to keep me at arm's length don't work

[Chorus]
There's things I wanna say to you, but I'll just let you live
Like if you hold me without hurting me
You'll be the first who ever did
There's things I wanna talk about, but better not to give
But if you hold me without hurting me
You'll be the first who ever did

[Post-Chorus]
Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah
Hold me, love me, touch me, honey
Be the first who ever did
Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah
Hold me, love me, touch me, honey
Be the first who ever did

[Chorus]
There's things I wanna say to you, but I'll just let you live
Like if you hold me without hurting me
You'll be the first who ever did
There's things I wanna talk about, but better not to give
Like if you hold me without hurting me
You'll be the first who ever did

 

groundbreaking 

i'm several drinks deep i dont have to make sense 

I don't even remember which songs have some bitch sitting in the back of a taxi but I'm pretty sure he put similar lines in songs he did with Lorde and St Vincent.

 

JACK did not put those lines in, they WRITE THEIR OWN LYRICS you MISOGYNISTIC PIG

also if you think HIAB is better you are very much allowed to comment, despite what DictatorNockwell might try to tell you

[Rorman Nockwell 56,493]

to open, i shall link a quote from anna pavlova, who was quite literally my idol when i was younger: https://pioneerthinking.com/happiness-is-like-a-butterfly-anna-pavlova

 

as you can see, the reference, while clumsily used, is not merely something lana pulled out of her ass; it refers to the mercurial nature of happiness in terms of fame and being a performer. so there.

 

the moonlight part requires some suspension of disbelief. its not about literally catching butterflies at night, rorman, give me a break. its about the fact that her shows take place at night, and onstage she's chasing happiness, which is fleeting like a butterfly. see where this is all headed? also, goth butterflies are a Concept.

 

So you're suggesting that sis plagiarised Anna Pavlova (which, in and of itself, doesn't really support your argument)? As if sis even knows who she is; she doesn't even know the lyrics to her own songs.

 

Sis hates performing and often looks miserable af. Which part is her chasing happiness? Is she searching for happiness in Google, because she has been known to Google her own lyrics during shows? Agreed about goth butterflies. I'll let you have that.

 

I'd like to point out that she actually has performed Cinnamon Girl at these ... happy shows you speak of ... several times, whilst never once performing your song.

 

Honestly, she would've been better off making it "Happiness is Mango-Flavoured Vape" . That would actually make sense because she can't put it down even when accepting awards and it's impossible to catch the vapour.

 

HIAB just doesn't make sense, literally or figuratively. I've talked about how it doesn't make sense literally, but figuratively - as discussed, she clearly hates performing. I remember someone said that it's about her trying to find happiness with her lover in the evenings - I mean, okay, but why is the daytime a lullaby?

 

 

lullaby=soothes distress. you sing a lullaby to a crying baby to make it calm down.

 

What? So she's distressed during the day? Why not catch some butterflies, then?

 

 

the serial killer question is RHETORICAL RORMAN HAVE YOU NO RESPECT FOR NUANCE (plus its a way more effective version of the "hold me without hurting me" shit)

 

What does a (rhetorical or otherwise) serial killer have to do with butterflies, and tour life, and lullabies? Like, this song is so fragmented. There is a wild assortment of ideas within the one song, and none of them complement each other, and go nowhere. Cinnamon Girl is far more cohesive. It flows and makes sense.

 

 

i'm not going to talk about "technical piano stuff," i'm just gonna say that HIAB sounds like an actual piano and CG sounds like jacks nasty digital keyboard, as per my analysis in the NFR thread    also you can check my analysis for a breakdown of the respective production

 

Okay but you love MAC and he used his Fisher-Price keyboard in that, too! And honestly, it's like choosing between Cholera or Typhoid, because it's not as if the piano in HIAB is anywhere near as good as the one used in say, Bartender.

 

 

as for the cinnamon lyrics, i will not be breaking them down. i'm just going to copy and paste them here, because i strongly believe they speak for (against) themselves.......

 

But we all agree that lyrics don't have to be complex for the song to be good. HIAB's lyrics aren't complex, don't make sense and are all over the place.

JACK did not put those lines in, they WRITE THEIR OWN LYRICS you MISOGYNISTIC PIG

 

also if you think HIAB is better you are very much allowed to comment, despite what DictatorNockwell might try to tell you

 

Okay so sis copied Lorde and St Vincent, then?! BAT EARS.

[movebaby 5,379]

So you're suggesting that sis plagiarised Anna Pavlova (which, in and of itself, doesn't really support your argument)? As if sis even knows who she is; she doesn't even know the lyrics to her own songs.

 

referenced not plagiarized! get a grip woman 

 

 

 

Sis hates performing and often looks miserable af. Which part is her chasing happiness? Is she searching for happiness in Google, because she has been known to Google her own lyrics during shows? Agreed about goth butterflies. I'll let you have that.

 

show me where i said it was an exact mirror of her life...i'll be waiting... if we were discussing in terms of her actual life and decisions and behavior at shows, i'd refuse to defend either/any song   

 

its about the concept of looking for happiness in art when you're in an unhappy relationship, about seeing each show/opportunity to immerse yourself in your art as a search for happiness...if she were happy already she wouldn't need to chase it, genius!

 

 

I'd like to point out that she actually has performed Cinnamon Girl at these ... happy shows you speak of ... several times, whilst never once performing your song.

 

"performed" is a reeeeeeeeaaaaaach...hope u stretched!! (and whomst said anything about "happy shows," may i ask??)

 

 

Honestly, she would've been better off making it "Happiness is Mango-Flavoured Vape" . That would actually make sense because she can't put it down even when accepting awards and it's impossible to catch the vapour.

 

maybe its about a character, roman, dare i say........a ~*persona*~........

 

 

What? So she's distressed during the day? Why not catch some butterflies, then?

 

are you familiar with the usage of the word "day" as a 24-hour unit of time, rather than specifically to describe the period during which the sun is up? i'm sure australian schools might neglect to teach little things like that. she's distressed over her fucked-up relationship, and each tour stop is an opportunity to emotionally soothe herself with songs.

 

 

What does a (rhetorical or otherwise) serial killer have to do with butterflies, and tour life, and lullabies? Like, this song is so fragmented. There is a wild assortment of ideas within the one song, and all of them complement each other, or go nowhere. Cinnamon Girl is far more cohesive. It flows and makes sense.

 

oh i see why you love cinnamon so much! when a new idea is introduced into the mix, you lose your mind! have you ever read a book? i'm sure it must be difficult to wrap your head around things like paragraph breaks. 

 

cohesion =/= quality! give me 15 different ideas over the same belabored (and weak) point any day. and "makes sense" is umm....generous.

 

 

Okay but you love MAC and he used his Fisher-Price keyboard in that, too!

 

yeah cuz the rest of the lyrics and production made up for it! the fisher price keyboard isnt even the worst part of cinnamon 

 

 

And honestly, it's like choosing between Cholera or Typhoid, because it's not as if the piano in HIAB is anywhere near as good as the one used in say, Bartender.

 

purely in terms of sound quality (not composition/playing), the piano in HIAB sounds just as good as the piano in bartender. fight me.

[Elina 74]

Cinnamon Girl

[SlowGinFizzzz 15,354]

I mean, Cinnamon Girl is just objectively better. HIAB is bottom three of that album.

[movebaby 5,379]

 HIAB is bottom three of that album.

 

and cg is bottom 1 

[Rorman Nockwell 56,493]

referenced not plagiarized! get a grip woman 

 

Referenced! Plagiarised! Either way, this would entail her knowing/remembering who Anna Pavlova actually is and I feel like that's reaching. It's not like she'd be reading about Anna in that Women Running with the Wolves type literature she skims reads!

 

 

show me where i said it was an exact mirror of her life...i'll be waiting... if we were discussing in terms of her actual life and decisions and behavior at shows, i'd refuse to defend either/any song 

 

I'm not saying that you're saying that she is happy on stage, I'm saying that you're saying that she's looking for happiness on stage. Is that why she's always late, because she can't find it?

 

 

"performed" is a reeeeeeeeaaaaaach...hope u stretched!! (and whomst said anything about "happy shows," may i ask??)

 

According to you, that's where she's looking for happiness! So let me rephrase: at her unhappy shows where she's looking for happiness.

 

 

maybe its about a character, roman, dare i say........a ~*persona*~........

 

NEVER HAD A PERSONA. NEVER NEEDED ONE.

 

 

are you familiar with the usage of the word "day" as a 24-hour unit of time, rather than specifically to describe the period during which the sun is up? i'm sure australian schools might neglect to teach little things like that. she's distressed over her fucked-up relationship, and each tour stop is an opportunity to emotionally soothe herself with songs.

 

Well, in this song, she specifically refers to night, as being, well, night ... so I'm assuming she's referring to day as being the part when it isn't night. You leave my aUsTrALiaN SkoOl alone! Your school was populated by students who ate entire heads of lettuces!

 

 

oh i see why you love cinnamon so much! when a new idea is introduced into the mix, you lose your mind! have you ever read a book? i'm sure it must be difficult to wrap your head around things like paragraph breaks. 

 

cohesion =/= quality! give me 15 different ideas over the same belabored (and weak) point any day. and "makes sense" is umm....generous.

 

Both cinnamon and pills are things you put in your mouth, okay?! But I guess that's a fair point because you catch both butterflies and serial killers. Lullabies, though?!

 

 

yeah cuz the rest of the lyrics and production made up for it! the fisher price keyboard isnt even the worst part of cinnamon

 

You've failed to tell me what the weakest part is because your argument is weaker than Lanz's Twitter password!

 

 

purely in terms of sound quality (not composition/playing), the piano in HIAB sounds just as good as the piano in bartender. fight me.

 

I didn't notice; I was too busy scoffing at the terrible lyrics!

[SlowGinFizzzz 15,354]

and cg is bottom 1

Let me get you a ladder to help you with all this reaching, luv!

[movebaby 5,379]

Well, in this song, she specifically refers to night, as being, well, night ... so I'm assuming she's referring to day as being the part when it isn't night. 

 

im going to reply to this by quoting myself:

 

RORMAN HAVE YOU NO RESPECT FOR NUANCE 

 

anyway....

 

You leave my aUsTrALiaN SkoOl alone! Your school was populated by students who ate entire heads of lettuces!

 

ONE (1) STUDENT who ate entire heads of lettuce, thanks!

 

Both cinnamon and pills are things you put in your mouth, okay?!

 

yeah yeah so are dicks, doesn't make em relevant to the song! its not about literal connections rorman its about ART and METAPHOR and EXPRESSION ok

 

You've failed to tell me what is the weakest part because your argument is weaker than Lanz's Twitter password!

 

the weakest part is the 

 

terrible lyrics!

 

(and also the horrible vocal processing and cheap beats)

[Rorman Nockwell 56,493]

yeah yeah so are dicks, doesn't make em relevant to the song! its not about literal connections rorman its about ART and METAPHOR and EXPRESSION ok

 

You'd know all about irrelevance because YOU prefer the worste song!

[movebaby 5,379]

You'd know all about irrelevance because YOU prefer the worste song!

 

[bluefiona 8,050]

I think both songs are beautiful. I like them both the same. 

 

However, 

 

[California Sun 547]

okay I obviously need to read the discord lol. but it really depends on what the definition of "better" is. i think if you're looking for a lighthearted yet emotionally twinged BOP, cg is for you. however, i would have to say that i agree with @@movebaby (sorry @rorman!!) that overall, sonically, lyrically, melodically, tonally, etc. happiness just has more to offer. cg is just v one note and a little too mainstream friendly for a lana song imo. also the outro is not it. thank you and goodnite

[Rorman Nockwell 56,493]

 

FUNNY how, when I look at the analytics, it turns out that 4 people have cast 12 votes! Which means SOMEONE is voting multiple times because they're desperate! 

 

[movebaby 5,379]

FUNNY how, when I look at the analytics, it turns out that 4 people have cast 12 votes! Which means SOMEONE is voting multiple times because they're desperate! 

 

well those are some flawed analytics, obviously they haven’t caught up if they still say 4 votes!!

[Rorman Nockwell 56,493]

well those are some flawed analytics, obviously they haven’t caught up if they still say 4 votes!!

 

Yes, you break Twitter when you vote multiple times for the wrong song.

[movebaby 5,379]

Yes, you break Twitter when you vote multiple times for the wrong song.

i don’t know what you’re talking about

[Pico Ocean Boulevard 41,021]

Cinnamon Girl puts me in a specific mood and I really love the vocals in the ah-aha part (and for me that's one of the most interesting things she does with her vocals on the album). And the Outro is pretty good. I only wish that CG would have more bass.

HIAB is not bad but I don't like it as much as I like Cinnamon Girl.