2024 US Presidential Election - Kamala Harris/Tim Walz vs. Donald Trump/JD Vance

[Mer 61,008]

9 minutes ago, Slutto said:

  

biden didn't win because he won the RFK vote. i mean just look at georgia where black voter turnout carried biden to victory. these undecided voters were not undecided on the issue of biden vs. trump, they were undecided on whether or not they were going to show up and vote. THIS is the actually important undecided demographic, not people undecided between candidates

Not entirely true. 

- New voters in 2020 who hadn’t voted in 2016 or 2018 split almost evenly for Trump and Biden (47% and 49% respectively) 

- 6% of voters in 2016 voted 3rd party vs only 2% in 2020

- Biden made huge gains in white suburban voters which arguably won him GA (Trump won white suburbs 51-38 against Clinton, but only 51-47 against Biden). 
- Biden also cut Trump’s lead on white male voters in half. 

 

Turnout is huge, and Dems need it, you’re right (especially in younger new voters)—but there’s still a coalition that needs to be built. 
 

Harris is struggling with black voters compared to Biden ATP in the race (if polling can be believed), and so she needs to run up her numbers with white women, suburban white voters, and try and keep Biden’s share of white men as best she can. 

[Quincy 4,164]

Undecided can mean many things. Undecided to vote for the “lesser of two evils,” undecided to vote at all, undecided about third party vs. dem/rep, etc. 

 

Many voters are also not very engaged or educated and don’t have an informed opinion. 
 

Politics these days makes many people apathetic about it all. 

[Mer 61,008]

Undecided voters (whether between candidates or whether they want to vote at all) also usually don’t squarely fall into any political sphere. They may believe that Medicare For All is needed, but also believe that illegal immigrants will eat their dogs and the border should be shut down. 
 

It’s hard to pinpoint their wants/needs, so veering to the center is almost always the safest bet. 
 

Spoiler

And honestly; they are the dumbest voting block in the world. 

 

[baddisease 17,616]

16 hours ago, Slutto said:

  

biden didn't win because he won the RFK vote. i mean just look at georgia where black voter turnout carried biden to victory. these undecided voters were not undecided on the issue of biden vs. trump, they were undecided on whether or not they were going to show up and vote. THIS is the actually important undecided demographic, not people undecided between candidates

 

imo Democrats have not done a good job in reaching out to people who don't see voting as being representative of themselves. looking at their efforts to attack Jill Stein, Claudia de la Cruz, and Cornel West, we can see that the voters of those three alternative progressive candidates would rather not vote at all if Democrats forced their candidates off the ballot.

16 hours ago, Mer said:

Undecided voters (whether between candidates or whether they want to vote at all) also usually don’t squarely fall into any political sphere. They may believe that Medicare For All is needed, but also believe that illegal immigrants will eat their dogs and the border should be shut down. 
 

It’s hard to pinpoint their wants/needs, so veering to the center is almost always the safest bet. 
 

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And honestly; they are the dumbest voting block in the world. 

 

 

what makes them dumb? it's not wrong to believe that one's voice and needs are not being met by the mainstream political duopoly.

[jaesana 3,561]

if anyone is worried about polls, keep in mind young people do not participate in polls.

[Quincy 4,164]

24 minutes ago, baddisease said:

 

imo Democrats have not done a good job in reaching out to people who don't see voting as being representative of themselves. looking at their efforts to attack Jill Stein, Claudia de la Cruz, and Cornel West, we can see that the voters of those three alternative progressive candidates would rather not vote at all if Democrats forced their candidates off the ballot.

 

what makes them dumb? it's not wrong to believe that one's voice and needs are not being met by the mainstream political duopoly.

You’re probably right that democrats aren’t doing the best job of reaching out to everyone. But then again, how do you appeal to everyone? The research probably suggests that most third party voters are less likely to vote at all than for Harris, or they might even vote for Trump or RFK, for example. 
 

I know you probably disagree, but many people believe that Jill is just playing spoiler and she doesn’t really care much about keeping Trump out of office. She has some highly sus baggage too, but I don’t wanna start drama about that. 
 

It’s not that voters are necessarily dumb, but a lot of them are uniformed, misinformed or just uneducated on the issues. 
 

Hell, I used to be in the undecided camp. I even thought I was libertarian for a while. I think I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012. I’m embarrassed to say I supported Ron Paul for a while too, until I started to research and think more critically. 
 

A lot of 3rd party candidates seem great at a quick glance. To someone who listens to a soundbite or two might even think RFK would be a great candidate. Once you go below surface level, then it all gets very questionable, to put it lightly. 
 

As much as the duopoly SUCKS, I can’t justify a vote for anyone aside from Kamala this election. Even if I disagree with her on some things. 

[baddisease 17,616]

21 minutes ago, Quincy said:

You’re probably right that democrats aren’t doing the best job of reaching out to everyone. But then again, how do you appeal to everyone? The research probably suggests that most third party voters are less likely to vote at all than for Harris, or they might even vote for Trump or RFK, for example. 
 

I know you probably disagree, but many people believe that Jill is just playing spoiler and she doesn’t really care much about keeping Trump out of office. She has some highly sus baggage too, but I don’t wanna start drama about that. 
 

It’s not that voters are necessarily dumb, but a lot of them are uniformed, misinformed or just uneducated on the issues. 
 

Hell, I used to be in the undecided camp. I even thought I was libertarian for a while. I think I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012. I’m embarrassed to say I supported Ron Paul for a while too, until I started to research and think more critically. 
 

A lot of 3rd party candidates seem great at a quick glance. To someone who listens to a soundbite or two might even think RFK would be a great candidate. Once you go below surface level, then it all gets very questionable, to put it lightly. 
 

As much as the duopoly SUCKS, I can’t justify a vote for anyone aside from Kamala this election. Even if I disagree with her on some things. 

 

IMO: Keeping Trump out of office means nothing if Democrats do not engage with why Trump and Trumpism rose to the forefront of society in the first place. It might stop Trump but his successors will never stop. Democrats don't want to combat the underlying problems beneath Trump, because it would risk their power, too. Jill Stein wants to stop Trump but ALSO address the underlying problems that led up to him. 

 

I don't like labeling the voters as "misinformed" or "uneducated", because I've heard those insults be used against people who have legitimate anti-duopoly or anti-systemic viewpoints. I could sit here and quote economics and philosophy and history and still, because I refuse to simp for Kamala Harris (or Biden before her), be called "uninformed"/"misinformed"/"uneducated". It's used as an attack against people whose viewpoints don't align with the system.

 

IMO third/alternative party candidates aren't all that bad, especially compared to Kamala or Trump. Kamala empowers the Pentagon, NATO, and the imperialist war machine (so does Trump but to a lesser extent, somehow). Trump is a racist, fascist, wants his generals to be like Hitler's, and supports the herrenvolk democracy Israel even more than Kamala does.

 

I've heard - during every single election that I've been aware of - the idea that we can't vote for (Bush/McCain/Romney/Trump) that we MUST support (Gore/Kerry/Obama/Clinton/Biden/Harris) and that we can move them in whatever direction we want once they've won, that we can get them to change their views, and it's almost never true. At this point, and perhaps I'm jaded, but hearing every single 21st Century election use this apocalyptic language, I'm tired of it. I want us to support third/alternate parties and fight for ranked choice voting NOW and not some time down the road that will almost certainly never come.

[Barry 5,892]

12 minutes ago, baddisease said:

 

IMO: Keeping Trump out of office means nothing if Democrats do not engage with why Trump and Trumpism rose to the forefront of society in the first place. It might stop Trump but his successors will never stop. Democrats don't want to combat the underlying problems beneath Trump, because it would risk their power, too. Jill Stein wants to stop Trump but ALSO address the underlying problems that led up to him. 

 

I don't like labeling the voters as "misinformed" or "uneducated", because I've heard those insults be used against people who have legitimate anti-duopoly or anti-systemic viewpoints. I could sit here and quote economics and philosophy and history and still, because I refuse to simp for Kamala Harris (or Biden before her), be called "uninformed"/"misinformed"/"uneducated". It's used as an attack against people whose viewpoints don't align with the system.

 

IMO third/alternative party candidates aren't all that bad, especially compared to Kamala or Trump. Kamala empowers the Pentagon, NATO, and the imperialist war machine (so does Trump but to a lesser extent, somehow). Trump is a racist, fascist, wants his generals to be like Hitler's, and supports the herrenvolk democracy Israel even more than Kamala does.

 

I've heard - during every single election that I've been aware of - the idea that we can't vote for (Bush/McCain/Romney/Trump) that we MUST support (Gore/Kerry/Obama/Clinton/Biden/Harris) and that we can move them in whatever direction we want once they've won, that we can get them to change their views, and it's almost never true. At this point, and perhaps I'm jaded, but hearing every single 21st Century election use this apocalyptic language, I'm tired of it. I want us to support third/alternate parties and fight for ranked choice voting NOW and not some time down the road that will almost certainly never come.

The people really running things, who are rich people/companies benefit with things just continuing as they are.

Probably why they always say you can't vote for those people because they won't win, just pick one of these two parties who have run things for hundreds of years they know what they're doing.

People need to vote for the other people until their numbers go up and up and encourage more people to vote for them or else you'll just always be stuck.

Theres basically no difference between republicans and democrats in America, both are right wing.

[Quincy 4,164]

16 minutes ago, baddisease said:

 

IMO: Keeping Trump out of office means nothing if Democrats do not engage with why Trump and Trumpism rose to the forefront of society in the first place. It might stop Trump but his successors will never stop. Democrats don't want to combat the underlying problems beneath Trump, because it would risk their power, too. Jill Stein wants to stop Trump but ALSO address the underlying problems that led up to him. 

 

I don't like labeling the voters as "misinformed" or "uneducated", because I've heard those insults be used against people who have legitimate anti-duopoly or anti-systemic viewpoints. I could sit here and quote economics and philosophy and history and still, because I refuse to simp for Kamala Harris (or Biden before her), be called "uninformed"/"misinformed"/"uneducated". It's used as an attack against people whose viewpoints don't align with the system.

 

IMO third/alternative party candidates aren't all that bad, especially compared to Kamala or Trump. Kamala empowers the Pentagon, NATO, and the imperialist war machine (so does Trump but to a lesser extent, somehow). Trump is a racist, fascist, wants his generals to be like Hitler's, and supports the herrenvolk democracy Israel even more than Kamala does.

 

I've heard - during every single election that I've been aware of - the idea that we can't vote for (Bush/McCain/Romney/Trump) that we MUST support (Gore/Kerry/Obama/Clinton/Biden/Harris) and that we can move them in whatever direction we want once they've won, that we can get them to change their views, and it's almost never true. At this point, and perhaps I'm jaded, but hearing every single 21st Century election use this apocalyptic language, I'm tired of it. I want us to support third/alternate parties and fight for ranked choice voting NOW and not some time down the road that will almost certainly never come.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I’m against the duopoly and I refuse to register as a democrat, even though on social policies I heavily lean left. The Democratic Party is a mess, but compared to Trump they seem pretty damn rational and reasonable on most issues. 
 

And I didn’t mean to label you in that camp (uneducated, mis/un-informed), but many voters are lacking info/education. I’ve engaged with many who seem to get their news from random sound bites or TikTok. That’s not how you make informed decisions. 
 

Why do so many eligible people not vote? A lot of it has to do with issues you bring up. But many people won’t vote period, including for third party candidates. I think we should have several competing parties. I’d like to think we could get somewhere with that, but it would probably take decades and there would be a lot of gridlock at first. Instead of 49% to 48% you’d see much smaller splits and it would be even harder to get a majority of people to agree on anything. 
 

Right now it’s the authoritarian/dictator-lite party vs. the corporate, often out of touch party. They both get suckered into the military-industrial complex, to some degree. 
 

What's probably most frustrating is that almost nothing ever gets done in our government because it’s one team vs. the other and very little compromise. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think there should be a 50/50 compromise between the parties. I disagree with almost everything the republicans claim to stand for. I wish there was a party on the left that aligned better with things that we both seem to have some agreement on. 

[baddisease 17,616]

Kamala and Trump are going to empower Israel attacking everyone it hates. Jill Stein and Claudia de la Cruz would cut Israel off from American arms and money.

[Candy Necklace 7,154]

And Jill Stein will just funnel the money and arms to her good friends in Russia instead 

[Mer 61,008]

2 minutes ago, Candy Necklace said:

And Jill Stein will just funnel the money and arms to her good friends in Russia instead 

I don’t know what’s gonna happen on Nov. 5th but I’ve really appreciated your energy in this thread 🤝🫶

[dexter 1,984]

as a non american, this is going to sound stupid, but what’s the point in voting if you live in a state like Wyoming? it’s obviously going to go to trump. but this is also the problem in my country - my area have voted the same party in every election since 1935 💀

[Mer 61,008]

1 minute ago, dexter said:

as a non american, this is going to sound stupid, but what’s the point in voting if you live in a state like Wyoming? it’s obviously going to go to trump. but this is also the problem in my country - my area have voted the same party in every election since 1935 💀

there’s more on the ballot than just the Presidency, including local laws/measures, local representatives, etc. 

[JDaniel 932]

18 minutes ago, dexter said:

As a non-American, this is going to sound stupid, but what's the point of voting if you live in a state like Wyoming? It's obviously going to go to Trump. But that's also the problem in my state - my area has voted for the same party in every election since 1935.💀

The right to vote is a fundamental right, not exercising it to defend these opinions can call into question our democracies

not all our actions are necessarily utilitarian  , on the other hand an election won by 30 to 70 is not interpreted in the same way as 40 to 60

[Candy Necklace 7,154]

1 hour ago, Mer said:

I don’t know what’s gonna happen on Nov. 5th but I’ve really appreciated your energy in this thread 🤝🫶

Thank youuu 💜 we’ve been in here together since literally page 1 🤝 but ngl I’m terrified for November 5th 

[Mer 61,008]

Israel's attack tonight gives me some insight into which way they probably think the election is gonna go 👀

[baddisease 17,616]

5 hours ago, Candy Necklace said:

And Jill Stein will just funnel the money and arms to her good friends in Russia instead 

 

I'd prefer it if she would funnel the money into, say, social programs.

[baddisease 17,616]

I really hate elections. I wanna not vote at all if I can't vote progressive without people getting mad at me for not voting their way.

 

Is there anyone else in this position? (The position being that they hate both options and really don't wanna vote for Kamala/Democrats?)

 

the anti-trans Democrat in Texas is an example of why I detest Democrats (I can elaborate.)

[baddisease 17,616]

On 10/24/2024 at 5:39 PM, Quincy said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I’m against the duopoly and I refuse to register as a democrat, even though on social policies I heavily lean left. The Democratic Party is a mess, but compared to Trump they seem pretty damn rational and reasonable on most issues. 
 

And I didn’t mean to label you in that camp (uneducated, mis/un-informed), but many voters are lacking info/education. I’ve engaged with many who seem to get their news from random sound bites or TikTok. That’s not how you make informed decisions. 
 

Why do so many eligible people not vote? A lot of it has to do with issues you bring up. But many people won’t vote period, including for third party candidates. I think we should have several competing parties. I’d like to think we could get somewhere with that, but it would probably take decades and there would be a lot of gridlock at first. Instead of 49% to 48% you’d see much smaller splits and it would be even harder to get a majority of people to agree on anything. 
 

Right now it’s the authoritarian/dictator-lite party vs. the corporate, often out of touch party. They both get suckered into the military-industrial complex, to some degree. 
 

What's probably most frustrating is that almost nothing ever gets done in our government because it’s one team vs. the other and very little compromise. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think there should be a 50/50 compromise between the parties. I disagree with almost everything the republicans claim to stand for. I wish there was a party on the left that aligned better with things that we both seem to have some agreement on. 

 

Ngl I really want 2028 (or 2026, taking into consideration non-presidential elections) to be the time we finally support the Greens or PSL or whatever party Cornel West is running for.

 

I HOPE that if we ever get to the point of supporting multiple parties, we can finally ditch the unfortunate legacies of Nader and Stein.

 

Do you think we'll finally transition to a RCV system or even discussing RCV systems in the time after this election?

 

@Mer, @Candy Necklace, @Quincy:

 

Even though we disagree on a lot, I actually want your advices:

 

I don't like Democrats for a bunch of reasons but the main reason is that I'm watching my people suffer and struggle and believe in the Democratic idea that we can win "progress" slowly over time. But Democrats have been doing spectacularly horrid shit like flip-flopping on Israel, on queer-related things (like funding our community centers), on trans women and girls (but mostly trans girls) being in girls'/women's sports teams and social spaces, stuff like that.

 

I think Trump is Satan but I don't trust Democrats. Since I've come to the conclusion that my vote really won't matter no matter who I vote for...

 

what do I do? do I swallow my feelings and just vote Democratic?