slang

Whether or not something's mature depends on intention somewhat. So FMUTTT in the context of MPG (being the song before it) and the way critics viewed her in the past seems a sophisticated and biting counter-attack (aka very mature), but the interpretation (we talked about it at LB) that had Lorde as the hypothetical diss object would not have been very mature. I think you could argue UV lyrics are simpler than NFR lyrics, but who cares about that as the torch singing was far better on UV. But full agree. NFR is not more mature (although she's older now) or more magnum than her previous albums. For me, if I loved NFR only 3/4's the amount of what I love AKA, I'd still want to buy NFR.

Just curious: do you like her poetry a lot? Because one would think she's *never* intending to be lazy when writing a poem. As for lazy vs. great lyrics in her songs, couldn't help but be reminded of this:

Heard a Red Hot Chili Peppers' song called Venice Queen and thought of VB. Topically they're at least related (though the perspective is male in VQ). I find RHCP lyrics, in this particular case, not awful, but not aweful either (forgive the pun), particularly because they're harder to understand than VB lyrics. Anyway, when LDR said a little bit of RHCP in NFR, I'm wondering if she meant this song in particular. The melodies are way different, of course, but the songs also share an acoustic guitar vibe in the first half.

I think your criticisms of NFR will have more validity, if on the next album she sounds like NFR again. Then you can really say she's "tamed". As it is, the album in the context of previous ones, is not a simple repetition of her past style, or anybody's style currently, and that can be impressive, if you like what she did. I like what she did more than you, so I'm less critical about it. As for the critics going apeshit over NFR, I think a lot of this can be explained by critics just not wanting to look stupid in the future, or maybe they actually like this style the best, idk. At any rate, I'm glad she got the AOTY nomination, in the same sense that I'm glad Kendrick Lamar got a Pulitzer prize for DAMN, even if it wasn't necessarily his best album.

Nice interview. As much as I hate the idea of turning any seminal pop album (e.g., Jagged Little Pill) into a Broadway musical, I really, really liked the idea that she would only let them do it, if they could retrofit a non-autobiographical plot to the songs (and there's supposed to be two new ones by her, as well). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvqI_p7atHU Reasons I Drink is OK, I'm warming up to it. Yeah, it's like the Sande song, but only on the (basic) piano beat, and the chorus seems characteristically hers. Her voice is definitely older, but still powerful and recognizably hers.

The outro, specifically the terminal piano part, initially annoyed me too. Then I sort of rationalized it (see below). TG grew on me (I guess from initially annoying to interesting, but definitely not my top tier for the album). "Hella compressed" : The beginning of it, on my equipment/ripping, has some noticeable overamplification (fuzzing). Other than that I don't really notice its compression, maybe because most pop is "hella compressed", but I wonder if TG stands out as being the most compressed song on NFR. TG's piano getting really tinny at the end, with the repetition of the piano motif and final resolution (tonally speaking) musically reminds me of the death rattle of a terminally-ill patient taking their last breaths. Not that I think that will make you like the end of the song any better, but the way you worded your comment about it seemed very poignant to me.

^ Ouch, that bodes ill. The video/single isn't available in my dimension yet, so I can't judge anything. I like her stuff prior to HABL (which is meh compared to her earlier work) and I think her self-banished "Alanis" albums, in the early 90s (where she's sort of like Britney Spears way before Britney Spears), is underrated. Anyway, it's weird when people I think are creative decline, and therefore interesting (and depressing) to witness, but I still hope she'll make a comeback by producing something of merit. A lot has happened since 2012.

The album Havoc and Bright Lights was 2012, so "nine years" is a little off (unless you're not counting HABL, which I, and a lot of critics, thought ended her career). She was one of my first pop musical "crushes", and I am hoping she comes back hard (aka angrily) and successfully. No news on the producer?

Just some stuff one could argue/suggest... "There's a new revolution, a loud evolution that I saw Born of confusion and quiet collusion of which mostly I've known <<< feels bad about Trump and not supporting Clinton more>>> A modern day woman with a weak constitution, 'cause I've got Monsters still under my bed that I could never fight off <<< allusions to substance abuse >>> A gatekeeper carelessly dropping the keys on my nights off <<< fear of lapses>>> "

The Grammys have treated LDR relatively well recognition-wise. BTD was ignored but Paradise was nominated. It's supposed to be a peer-voting organization to determine the nominations and award, so a nomination is considered a win over all those not nominated. While UV and HM are ignored, LFL and NFR, two pretty contrasting albums, are recognized via nominations. I think at some point peer intimidation just becomes outweighed by the desire not to appear stupid in posterity (well that's my theory). BTW, if you go to grammy.com and click the search button, enter an artist's name, follow the artist's name's link, you can see their nomination/win history. For instance, try it for David Bowie (he was recognized more slowly than LDR was, objectively speaking).

I was really hoping for an important award category like Best Recording Package or Best Country Album, but these two noms are pretty good too. I think the chances of AOTY are decent. Ariana's already recognized (not as much as she could be though, need another Beck over Beyonce moment); Eilash needs to be tested further. But shit, anything can happen. BTW, Jack is also nominated for producer of the year.

Some specific comparisons of "better production" (or is it style?) than NFR that I saw: @Vertimus REM "Suspicion"? Great song, reminds me of Bryan Ferry quite a bit. While I would agree LDR would nail a Bryan-Ferry-esque style/production, she just wasn't shooting for that. NFR doesn't bank on suave and cool like Bryan Ferry does, but more on aching and vulnerability, imo. I've described NFR as ethereal/schmaltzy/NewOrleans/dirge. It's not "folk", but I would also describe NFR as "not not folk", in the sense that there are artist like Dylan and Cohen that are clearly aligned to folk but slip genres quite a bit. @MXDH VB doesn't remind me of Pink Floyd (Shine on you crazy ...) that much. It reminds me of Simon and Garfunkal sort of taking a detour through The Doors, specifically this Doors: Having listened to VB off and on over a year and post release, the instrumental part strikes me as pretty well composed, as in a set of micro variations on themes from the song-part of the song. Maybe Jack deserves the lion's share of the credit, idk, but I think LDR's vocal additions (interesting to compare to Jim's) also have a lot to do with it. I also think VB compares decently or interestingly to other long tracks of comparable artists (e.g. Cat Power's got a long track on Sun, Nothing but Time; Paul McCartney's got a long track on Driving Rain, Rinse the raindrops; and the Doors track as I suggested).

The album version of SS is a signature song to be sure, but you have to measure an artists' creative magnitude by how many signature songs they ultimately have, not just in the fact that they have a couple. IMO, LDR has quite a few signature songs, on either temporal side of the BTD release (and within BTD itself). Let me add to the shit stain idea (if I understand it). It should refer not only to the popularity of the remix (in sales) over everything else in LDR's discog, but also the fact, that of all of her work, the derivative remix is the only work that actually won a grammy (which means she didn't actually get a grammy). Hopefully, this will be rectified at the next grammys.

I hear "momma's always..." [breaks off and resets] To me, this strengthens this interpretation of the song: incorrect link-to-post pre-update form: http://lanaboards.com/index.php?/topic/10278-norman-fucking-rockwell-pre-release-thread/?p=772598 correct link-to-post post-update form: http://lanaboards.com/topic/10278-norman-fucking-rockwell-pre-release-thread/page/1799/?=comments#comment-772598

So if you go Wikipedia on the topic Rollingstones 500 greatest albums, Elton supposedly has 6 (along with Bowie), although, I could only find 5 here: https://musicbrainz.org/series/8668518f-4a1e-4802-8b0d-81703ced6418?page=1 and on google. Tumbleweed Connection (458), Honky Chateau (359), Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy (158), Elton's Greatest Hits (136), Goodbye Yellowbrick Road (91). I'll opine Madman Across the Water, just as a personal honorable mention. Bernie Taupin really gave Elton a huge range of song topics (some risqué for the time). They were also quite interested in Americana/nostalgia. It's possible GYR (#91) is counted twice, because it's a "double" album, idk. GYR is the best one to check out if you like LDR's leaks/unreleased, imo. I have often thought one could put together a double album of her best leaks/unreleased to get something as inventive, diverse, and compulsively listenable as GYR. Captain Fantastic is also very good, comparable with NFR and BTD (as improbable as that seems). Anyway, hobnobbing with Elton John is definitely a career highwater mark in promo that postures LDR's pop icon-ness. If I seem to remember Pat Grant relishing the fact LDR was on the cover of Rollingstone for UV, this occurrence on RS must have really blown her mind. ETA: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/447474912950438336/

It does seem like critics finally caught up with her on NFR, though there is a very clear increasing trend in metacritic scores across albums, and importantly she had more metacritic reviewers on NFR than LFL (28 vs. 26 -- though both are less than HM at 31). I think the album is not a magnum opus, but just normal good for her: i.e., better than others contemporaneously, and different from what she's done before, which is enough for me to say Bravo (or is it Brava, idk). Favorite songs: NFR, VB, TNBAR, FIILY, with quite a lot of near misses on favorite (HTD, HIADT, C, MAC), and everything else was enjoyable. The (non-fucking-reverberation!) production did not seem attrocious to me, but I'm not an audiophile.

I hope he shared some info about "Psychedelic Soup", his followup to "Cold Coffee". Him going dark on his art would actually be a loss to the culture. I can see him being extremely bummed about UV, given Brooklyn Baby has a soundalike musician singing the male part at the end of that song (Seth Kaufman, everyone was fooled by this initially and thought it was Barrie). So UV is really the beginning of the end for them. I also remember Barrie praising UV ("UV is ultragood"), shortly before the infamous "It's not over" TMZ interview. If I had to guess as to why they broke up, I would *guess* that she felt his relationship to alcohol was too dangerous for her. The "liquor off the top shelf" line in California sort of supports this idea, which I originally got from thinking Barrie's instagram (at about the time of their public breakup) had a lot of alcohol imagery in it (could have been a cause or could have been an effect). Other than Black Beauty and Brooklyn Baby, I don't think any of the songs of UV pertain to Barrie. With the possible exception of The Blackest Day (he's sort of associated to the word "black"), I don't see any of the HM songs to be about Barrie.

Given "song of the decade", which LDR seems to have debuted as an award category at Q, it would be nice if Q magazine (associated with the Q awards) would review NFR! Just saying.

I don't think she considers herself a professional poet, because there are journals and outlets for publishing professional poetry, so why doesn't she just take up a pseudonym, and try to publish some of her poems that way? Maybe she has. I think she just likes to write poetry and is now faced with "what am I going to do with it". I'm glad she's decided to share. So if a hypothetical critic should want to assess her, I think it has to be done in terms of its quality as a fan communication, even if LDR happens to be LDR's biggest fan (which is just to say she writes the poetry she likes to write). Paris Review of NFR? Do you mean this:https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2019/09/06/staff-picks-men-children-motown-and-middle-age/ She has poetic inspirations sure, but does she try to sound like these? In the case of Whitman, I think not. I can remember reading some Plath and thinking she was a tough read (unlike LDR). Woolf or Kaur I don't know. For what it's worth, a poet that I thought might be interesting to compare to LDR to is Delmore Schwartz (literary hero of Lou Reed).Here's a example: https://www.americanpoems.com/poets/delmore-schwartz/tired-and-unhappy-you-think-of-houses/ Jim Morrison is also interesting as a comparison (because she likes him and he also wrote poems independent of Doors songs):https://culturacolectiva.com/books/10-poems-by-jim-morrison-you-must-read-to-turn-your-world-upside-down She doesn't have to be as good as either to self-publish, imo. Citing somebody who (you think) does it better is an easy way to criticize that imparts useful info to a reader. Of course, you can also cite technical non-comparative reasons for thinking something bad (e.g. poor word choice, inconsistencies in story logic, or odious philosophies expressed), but it's got to be concrete, in the sense of the specific offenses completely described, so a reader can then judge for themselves. Otherwise, imo, it's just not good criticism. There's a lot of bad criticism that's overly subjective, such as (see especially the last para):https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/16223-lana-del-rey/ She doesn't have to promote it really. She just has to care enough about it to release it, preferably in an easy to access (cheap) venue. If she wants critics to be confused about just how to review it, she should have a low-key release. Her comments about selling it for a buck are germane here. If she charges a buck for it, you'd have to be some really hostile asshole of a critic to be destructively critical.

A critic should only be able to ding her if they can show her redundant with another established poet that does her exact poetry thing better. That is, critical response depends on what you expect to get out of the poem in the first place, e.g., some kind of a surpassing descriptive statement about the human condition -- relative to what's come before -- or just get closer to her mind. Any critic who decides to criticize her on the former might have to work really hard, if, in fact, LDR's poetic goal were to get her fans a closer and clearer view of her mind. Of course, critiques can always be of the "fake-orgasm" variety, where negative (and totally uninteresting) subjective reactions to the work are described. I really hope LDR is immune to that kind of criticism by now. So in the interest of discussion who (in terms of an established poet) would one propose for criticizing just how good (aka redundant) a poet LDR is? Alternatively, if we want to limit discussion of poetry to among her peers, the comparison with Halsey could be interesting (in the mind-comparison sense), if that ever occurs. I'm also curious as to what people think of Florence's poetry in relation to LDR's. I don't know Florence's work, did she ever self-publish--e.g. instagram-- like LDR did?

Lying seems too simplistic, imo. It's like she's talking to a psychotherapist instead of an interviewer. She first responds to why she responded to Ann in the first place and then later says: 'All I wrote was, “I’m not uncooked and I don’t have a persona.”'. That's not all she wrote, but it's a fair summary. While I think the way she responds to interviewers is sometimes really whack, I do usually end up agreeing with her suggested "defenses". In particular, Ann's article is way, WAY, too much about LDR's Id (just consider the review's title) and not enough about her superego (or even the music really). BTW, I also cut LDR considerable slack on the absence-of-persona issue, in the sense implied by this example: If you just consider her big-budget BTD videos, as a representative sample of her work, you can say her persona fixates on death in each of them, but you can also say her artistry explores death in each of them (pretty diversely, imo). What does the former add to the latter?

Thanks a lot @clampigirl! I'm not sure if Schubert's sadcore is relevant to LDR's, but as Schubert is considered a very great songwriter (music-wise, back then lyrics were from poets), a comparison of LDR to Schubert is really quite complimentary, and not something you see often (ever?) for pop artists. Schubert had plenty of reasons to be sadcore in virtue of dying, at 31, possibly of syphillis (and he knew this was gonna happen). He composed right to the end, and it was an enormous tragedy for himself and for us that he died so young (i.e., classical/romantic-period would have been even richer had he lived). The radio programmers only compare five NFR songs to five of the Schubert cycle, while there are 24 Winterreise songs. One could ask oneself of each of the 24 songs, which NFR song is possibly similar (musically) to it and make a proper Schubert x LDR hyperalbum.*** Lyrics could be considered if you know German (or care to do that, as I'm thinking the radio programmers actually did). If you want the lyrics, they're available in English: http://www.gopera.com/lieder/translations/schubert.html (look for D. 911 or Winterreise) *** For what it's worth, I've been listening to the sequence below, mainly on the basis of NFR familiarity (and strictly musical comparison), and not Winterreise familiarity (I'm more into Schubert's piano sonatas and instrumental chamber works): no. 01 Gute Nacht California no. 05 Der Lindenbaum Love song no. 06 Wasserflut The Next Best American Record no. 07 Auf dem Flusse Cinnamon Girl no. 09 Irrlicht hope is a dangerous thing for a woman like me to have - but I have it no. 10 Rast Norman fucking Rockwell no. 11 Frühlingstraum The greatest no. 20 Der Wegweiser Mariners Apartment Complex no. 22 Mut Doin' Time no. 24 Der Leiermann Bartender no. 15 Die Krähe Happiness is a butterfly no. 03 Gefrorne Tränen How to disappear no. 02 Die Wetterfahne Fuck it I love you no. 13 Die Post Venice Bitch [constrained to be at the end because of the instrumental outro] BTW: I did something similar with Ella Fitzgerald (Best of the songbooks vol. 1) and LDR (Honeymoon) in order to compare the two generations of song styles and production (a more reasonable, if less ballsey comparison, than LDR to Schubert). However, that was more of an interleaving of the two albums tracknumber-wise. http://lanaboards.com/index.php?/topic/6841-honeymoon-post-release-discussion-thread/?p=342266 corrected: http://lanaboards.com/topic/6841-honeymoon-post-release-discussion-thread-poll/?do=findComment&comment=342266 .

Could it be peer-nominated by everybody voting? The Wikipedia on AOTY doesn't disconfirm this idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Album_of_the_Year#Process

I looked at the transcript only, which they post at the website. They have points both complimentary (about her new "maturity") and critical (her response to Ann Powers). I don't know these guys as mover/shakers though. On the topic of interesting discussion of LDR/NFR, The Atlantic gave both a good NFR review (doesn't count for metacritic) and a rejoinder to Ann's think piece. https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/08/lana-del-rey-norman-fucking-rockwell-review-stunning/597154/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/09/lana-del-rey-says-she-never-had-persona-really/597883/ The Atlantic famously endorsed both Abraham Lincoln and Hilary Clinton (not at the same time, LOL).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic

They must ask the pub to give a number; I can't really tell for Glide. "Coolly Detached"? Topanga's hot and she's taking off her bathing suit. LDR needs 2 more reviews to tie Taylor for number of reviews received.