Vertimus

Okay. If you're making an association between the contents of the album, especially CN, the title track, and A&W, I'm not approaching the album in terms of the Black Dahlia at all, before or after I learned about the making of the CN video. As I see it, there is no correlation between the Black Dahlia murder and the lyrics to 'Candy Necklace.' My guess is that, after writing 'Candy Necklace,' and perhaps favoring it (which would explain why she replaced 'Purify' with it) and thinking in terms of a music video, she or she and her team thought of doing a video around the theme of the Black Dahlia. We don't know when Lana first learned about the Dahlia murder, but I think anyone who has seriously looked into the case and seen the most gruesome photos can attest that it is a extremely haunting case, full of lost hope, innocence, and promise, tragedy, and yes, torture and the most extreme kind of violence. So perhaps the case is relatively new to Lana. So making a kind of low-key 'tribute' to the case seems reasonable to me; Lana doesn't exploit the case, in my opinion, as she might have. And obviously, Marilyn Monroe is highlighted too, and she had her own sad story and demise.

You mean the bloody trunk? As I just said above, to my knowledge, there was never a large bloody trunk, or a trunk of any kind, associated with the murder of the BD. Her severed corpse was first come upon by a mother and a little boy; the body was just off the sidewalk in a field. How it got there is still part of the mystery. No one believes she was actually murdered in the field. There's at least a dozen books about the case, check them out, some quite gruesome, but all full of speculation and guess work. It's a case similar to the Jack the Ripper murders, in which everyone and their mothers have been put forth as candidates for the killing. CORRECTION: It was a little girl and her mother, not a boy.

For me, a body seen severed in two in the distance by an approaching little boy and the boy's mother, just off a sidewalk in a field, would have been pushing it far, or any visual, blurry or clear, of the horrible things the killer did to the BD's face. Since the BD herself was never a star or starlet, never rode around Hollywood in limousines (or the equivalent), was never met by paparazzi when she exited a vehicle, and never attended an Hollywood opening in such style, the woman portrayed could be any 40s star or starlet, and there was also, to the best of my knowledge, no association of the BD with a bloody trunk.

Absolutely, though George Hodel was never officially charged as the BD murderer and said murderer has never been 100% identified--like Jack the Ripper. There's numerous candidates, including famous persons like Woody Guthrie, Orson Welles, and May Ray; most or all have been ruled out, though Man Ray was an associate of George Hodel. I'm glad Lana didn't push the Black Dahlia stuff very far at all--maybe she realized it was a mistake and bad karma to go too far down that road.

Great video, one of her best. And Lana rises like a phoenix at the end.

Agreed. What can we take from 'Peppers' except that it's a bop or an attempt at one? Personally, I think it succeeds. 'Taco Truck' has the 'cynical cool' of "pass me my vape, I'm feeling sick, I need to take a puff, imagine if we actually gave a fuck, wouldn't that be something to talk about for us?" and "blood on my feet on the street." I love it but doesn't fit in with the kintsugi theme even when it moves into 'VB.' Since Leonard Cohen came up with the 'there's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in' lyrics on his album 'The Future' in 1992, though the concept of kintsugi no doubt predated that by centuries, well, I assume Lana embraced the concept, and her partial use of his lyrics might be another 'classic album/song tribute' like her references to 'Hotel California,' 'Lay, Lady, Lay,' and Cohen's own 'I'm Your Man.'

Full agree. Thanks. Also, I still notice an ominous silence here around the meaning and/or interpretations of 'A&W.'

LTLI, I've been listening to it a lot and what strikes me is how much it jumps around stylistically; 'Candy Necklace,' 'Margaret,' 'Peppers,' 'Paris, Tx,' and 'LTLI' don't sound to me as if they come from the same album, which, as I said, is okay with me. Nor do I get any sort of 'overall message' or mood from the album, also no problem. I'm listening to it as a collection of single songs or favorite songs among the track list. OB, I'd like to have the experience of being able to see it that way, hear it that way.

A lot of members here talk a lot about 'album cohesion' and its importance to them, so I'm wondering how they feel about 'album cohesion' on OC. Some of the songs fit together musically and/or thematically (especially the 'sweet' songs,' which I call the 'sweet suite'), while others only fit together thematically (like 'A&W' and 'Candy Necklace'). 'Fingertips' and 'Kintsugi' go well together because they have similar structures. Taken as a whole, though, I can't mesh 'LTLI' with 'A&W' in terms of mood, theme, or music, and certainly 'Margaret,' one of the sweet songs, and 'A&W' don't mesh, nor do 'Margaret' and 'Peppers.' 'Paris, Texas,' perhaps suitably, is out there in the wilderness on its own. Since 'cohesion' or 'cohesiveness' are not important to me, I'm not personally bothered. How does everyone else feel?

"When I look back Tracing fingertips over plastic bags." That's pretty bad.

It's great fun! Thanks for chiming in. But it's still great. I wouldn't mind an entire new album of Making Outs and MMITPM.

Let's not forget Making Out. To me, that's pure early Lana. It makes a good step-sister to Meet Me in the Pale Moonlight.

Full agree. I don't need the VB parts at all, but I accept them because they're there and VB is a good song in itself.

Yes, I've said it here before, but every time I hear the first part of 'Taco Truck,' as much as I enjoy it, it seems to me it could have another 'Venice Bitch' and a sure-fire LDR classic had the TT parts gone on another 3-4 minutes. I'd be happy even if someone would just copy the first part and make a new version with the first part doubled or tripled.

I say: Sweet/Arcadia

Yeah, I get the rich older man and the 'kept girl' or 'sugar baby' aspect, I just wish it was slightly more lyrically cohesive. And that does tie in, lyrically, to some of the BTD/P themes. The 'rockafella' part, musically, sort of jars with the rest of the song for me.

I listen to 'Taco Truck' and 'LTLI' the most and about equally, and then 'Fishtails,' which I prefer to its fraternal twin, 'Tulsa Jesus Freak.' 'Margaret' isn't a bad song, in my opinion, Lana just tried to do too much with it, with Jack singing (somewhat clumsily; maybe it's the production or the mastering) and then all the talking at the end. Whether it fits on the album is another question--it belongs to the lighter/brighter side of OC, 'Sweet,' 'Grandfather,' 'The Grants,' 'LTLI.' I like Lana's vocals on 'Candy Necklaces' verses a lot. Classic 'dark' Lana. The 'Rockafella My Umbrella' part I don't really care for; the use of the 'Rockafella' seems completely random. Maybe the song was rushed, especially the chorus.

It's the best part of the entire album.

I think, for better or worse, an artist presents a certain stance, especially at the beginning of their career, a persona, and this is true of musicians from Billie Holiday to Bob Dylan to Jeff Buckley to Beyonce and the boys from 21 Pilots. And that stance often changes for some artists--look how many personas Madonna has had--while other, more centered artists often maintain the same persona over the decades--like Prince or Bruce Springsteen. Lana has changed so much since BTD/P, and has every right to, as apparently she feels she's expressing herself more completely, genuinely, and honestly, something she seemingly needed to do to exorcise her demons. So much of OB is deeply personal, and presented as deeply personal, and that's the way I've received it. I get it, but for me, a lot of it is too subjective to be really interesting as songs, rather than poetry or diary entrees, things she's written completely for herself. For example, learning the things we learn about her life in 'Fingertips' certainly excites a lot of her more emotional Stans, who say it makes them cry, or hits them so powerfully that they have to pull over to the side of the road to sob, but what about everyone else? The events are just sort of listed, they're not presented in a dramatic way like they were in 'Wildfire Wildflower.' The music just sort of tinkles on; you can barely hum it. As I see it, and I know I'm in the minority here, just because these things happened to her doesn't make them necessarily interesting as presented. Who hasn't faced multiple tragedies and losses, or been victimized, including the suicide of loved ones? My best friend in high school, Steve, who I loved dearly, committed suicide just before his 23rd birthday, to name one example from my own life. And judging by the 'common events of day-to-day life' she's been singing about, I expect the next album to have song titles like 'Stretch Jeans,' 'Bathrobe,' 'Interviewing Maids,' 'Cinnamon Toast,' 'Lovin' That New Reality Show,' 'Having The Carburetor Fixed,' etc.

I can relate to a lot of what you've said here--and what's largely missing on OB, but which was present on West Coast, Ride, Doin' Time, High by the Beach or Blue Jeans, is tension, contrast, especially musically. I also miss the lighter, funner side of Lana, which we haven't heard in ages except for 'Wild At Heart,' though 'Groupie Love' was a sad attempt at an Old School lighter song, I think, and 'Margaret' is as well, but it should have either had Jack's verse or Lana's spoken part, but not both (the spoken part adds nothing IMO, I would ace it). It's the sophisticated Lana I also miss, and the sophisticated and sometimes archly clever lyricist of 'Hollywood's Dead,' 'Hollywood,' 'Radio,' 'Gods & Monsters,' 'Cola,' etc. I respect her right to write and record whatever she wants and go in whatever direction she likes, but with OB, I feel I'm losing touch with her for the first time since BTD.

I can relate to a lot of your points, especially 1, 6, and 8, and, to a lesser degree, 7, though it's been on OB that I feel my connection with breaking Lana for the first time, which is sad for me. I know that artists don't necessarily progress and get better and better with each album, painting, play, film, poem, or book, but I can only relate in the most general way to songs like 'Sweet,' 'Margaret,' 'The Grants,' and 'Grandfather.' The distance from her material on early songs like 'Summertime Sadness' is what I loved--we even find it on 'late' unreleased tracks like 'Serene Queen'--but it seems that's a part of her artistry she's moved away from on OB. Of course, I respect her right to do whatever she wants to do, whatever she wants to explore, 100%.

Apparently so; I'm quoting someone who said it earlier in this thread.

1) The 'Unreleased' seems moot at this point, especially after BB. It presents too many problems, like: "It's songs most Stans and fans already have," "Will she just rip copies off YT and make everyone unhappy again?" or, if she rerecords 'Hollywood,' 'Serene Queen,' 'Fine China,' 'JFK,' 'Unidentified Flying Bill,' 'Dragon Slayer,' etc., then she still has to go back into the studio for a few months, which is a lot of work, and many Stans will no doubt be unhappy with the inevitable changes that result. 2) The covers album, if it exists at all, seems more likely (I don't believe it does exist). 3) For LDRX as an album of new material, I'd like it to go off in the direction of the first part of 'Taco Truck,' for me, the best part of OB, and have a lot of drama, energy, tension, and life, like, in fact, 'Serene Queen.' Something that sounds professionally produced and mastered. Something vibrant and distinct that has been carefully cultivated without coming across as carefully cultivated. I feel OB became too subjective, and the lack of distance from her material doesn't make it a better album. I realize a lot of Stans love the deep lyrical and emotionally subjectivity of some of the OC tracks, but I can't see her going any further in that direction unless it's on a poetry album. That she said she's interested in making (another) pop album sounds like good news to me.

I still suspect they're going to be just background vocals on her dad's records, something like that, not fully-developed lyrical tracks.

It's much more like a 'New Age' track or piece of music than the earlier two were.