Vertimus

I've had the same reaction. I like it, but I don't crave it, and for me, that's partly because it doesn't have the crisp, direct, immediate sound I like with her music, regardless of the song structure. I remember with a former album, I literally walked around Manhattan and Brooklyn for half a year listening to it and never tired of it, because it energized and held my attention all that time. And I still love that album.

Very likely, since it had that effect on most of us. and she refers to it on BBS and VFR. Yes-- that's why I mentioned it in the first place, that Lana knows she is a critical target and would prefer to be criticized for evolving than for staying the same.

Right. Well said. There was nothing on UV that I hadn't heard before, though it was startling to hear Lana performing it, as it so up-ended her BTD/P sound. Also, as I've said before, I still find 'Gods & Monsters' a lot more convincing--and heretical--than the 'bad girl' pose she adopted on so much of UV, which I do find convincing on the title track, but do not on 'MPG' and 'FMYUTTT.' I like 'Sad Girl,' but I found 'I'm a sad girl, I'm a bad girl, I'm a mad girl' a little underwhelming. I still find the guitar solo on 'Shades of Cool' a little silly. And 'PWYC' is just not my cup of tea in a million ways, and, to me, also not convincing. Those are my subjective responses to UV, and haven't changed much since its release.

No 'word salad' found there for me. When I was your age, I was doing the same thing, as so many 'arty' kids and young people do in all generations post-1965, when the old WASP hierarchy and its culture collapsed, and American and British pop culture took over the world. Turner Classic Movies (TCM) keeps those 'old stars long forgotten' relevant and thankfully, promotes them to current generations. When I was growing up, people knew who Gregory Peck, Joan Crawford, and Humphrey Bogart were, at least by name...now many young people don't know who Sean Connery or Al Pacino are, unless Pacino via Scarface. But that's what life is for, learning and exploring, and today, younger generations have almost the whole of 20th century culture to mine as they see fit, available at their fingertips.

Yes, that's true, and we've discussed it here many times. Like so many musical artists that began their careers and found their success while young or youngish, she's matured. She hasn't remained static by choice and or circumstance. She's in early middle age, let's face it. Priorities change, and if she marries and has a child soon--one or more--we're very likely going to hear a lot more songs like 'Sweet Carolina' and 'Grandfather' and a lot less like 'Ultraviolence,' 'Honeymoon,' and '13 Beaches.' Lana said long ago that she "sort of grew up in a Carly Simon household,' and I said here a few years ago that that Carly Simon influence is coming through, whether she realizes or intends it or not. Songs like 'Arcadia,' 'COCC,' and 'VFR' are very Carly Simon-like, as are even 'Hope' and the 'NFR!' title track, and Simon made an entire career of singing about her famous husband (James Taylor) and lovers (too numerous to list here), her privileged upbringing, her paralyzing shyness, her siblings, and her children Ben and Sally. Lana and Carly are both Cancers, by the way--family talk and obsession comes naturally to them. Being older than some here, I wasn't nearly as thrilled by the 'UV' production or sound, especially on 'Cruel World,' as I'd heard many songs like that before. But I realized then that, for many, 'Cruel World' was something like their introduction to that sort of a sound.

I agree. It's not cluttered up or padded with several forgettable songs like 'BTD' is, and, to me, UV is just too broad, and unlike the Lana we knew earlier. On UV, I think you can tell there was a lot of indecision and at least one major change of course, so that the album seems spotty (most artists produce albums like this at some point, where you can tell they aren't quite sure of what they wanted. Of course, with Lana, this also happened with LFL, and perhaps others). She should never have taken 'Black Beauty' off the regular album, despite the leak, and adding 'Is This Happiness' to the regular album would have helped, in my opinion. 'Old Money' is paddling around largely in a sea of anger, rage, and sociopathy like a fish out of water.

I love 'Paradise,' I think it's vastly overlooked in her catalog. 'Cola,' 'Ride,' 'Yayo,' 'Gods & Monsters,' and 'Belair' are moody Lana classics, and 'America' is so under-appreciated for being a pure, happy little song.

We know for a fact that Lana has said, multiple times, and in multiple ways, "But some of that [BTD] production! UUgghhh." I do think she would have stayed somewhat on that course, as she did with 'Paradise' and songs like 'Cola,' but about that time she had her public feud with Lorde and said that Lorde criticized her but then stolen her 'sound,' so I think she was happy with the general 'Paradise' production and only took a sharp swerve from it with 'UV' because she felt Lorde had stolen her sound. At the time, I remember thinking this was a huge boner move on Lana's part, that she should have 100% stood her ground. She would have ended up wiping the floor with Lorde.

I think it's this: she used to be writing from her own experience but in a manner that was for a public, an audience, of some kind. In other words, she extrapolated her personal experience into something many or most could relate to, made it 'universal,' and that was part of her genius in that era. But since NFR! she's been 'inward gazing' a lot more and 'outward looking' a lot less. So I get the sense that she's now writing 100% what she wants to write, produce, and release, free of any feeling that she has to write for an audience of any kind. Actually, this might have started with 'Honeymoon,' which she said she more-or-less created to please herself, and then taken a reversal with the more-fan-and-radio friendly LFL. But then she went full-tilt back into creating whatever she wants, free of any thoughts about her public, or a public, period. So we hear a lot more about walking to the mall, watching television, meeting for coffee, and doing the laundry--not exactly the stuff of of tense risk-taking, passion, and romance. Sometimes, as artists mature, they do leave the 'general public' behind--look at Joni Mitchell--she not only left the 'general public' behind after 'Court & Spark,' she left most of her diehard fans behind too, starting with 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns.' In a Rolling Stone interview, she said, 'I'm going to be criticized regardless, and I'd rather be criticized for changing and doing what I want rather than for staying the same."

I assume it can only have been by Lana's choice, as we're told endlessly that every choice in the studio is hers, none are Rick's, Emile's, Jack's, etc., except perhaps on BTD, where some of the production was apparently forced upon her as a new sign to the label. I like crisp, clear, direct production, especially on the vocals--that is, to me, where a great deal of her power comes from, especially as Lana is essentially a studio artist, a studio vocalist. I also said that last night in the BB thread.

Glad to hear. It's one of my Top Five all-time favorite Lana songs. I'm not saying it's objectively one of the Five Best Lana songs ever. But I never tire of it.

That’s well said.

And full of piss and vinegar.

It’s lol that’s bad.

Cranekiss is a hater.

Hey, from the start of this thread I’ve said I like every (new) song on BB except the title track, with its embarrassing name-dropping and other lyrical faults.

And there are far, far more where she sounds awful. Even the last live country thing she did in TN or TX, she sounded very weak vocally.

Outside of the studio I said, outside of the studio. I’m pretty certain she recorded ‘Arcadia’ IN the studio. She does have a lovely voice, but she needs the studio, just as Nicks and Harry always have. Since laziness is a fan theme, rightly or wrongly, of the entire BB project, maybe she was also being lazy with her recording of ‘Arcadia’ too, or no one around her had the nerve to speak up, or perhaps they did and she just blew them off.

In response to LittleRedPartyDress: I wouldn’t say that. I think it’s very in keeping with the rest of her catalog, and better than some of her other albums that are generally more highly praised. I still think adding the leaked tracks was a mistake, especially in their original form, and/or using 8th rate copies of them—that’s pretty inexcusable and reflects poorly on her own self-respect for her work as well as her respect for her audience. I remember when the delay was announced and Honeymouns or BOZ wrote that she had scrapped some tracks, and was, instead ‘revisiting her past.’ What happened to the scrapped tracks? Apparently, none were reworked for OB.

One of her best.

I love it too. Seriously.

As to her poor vocals on ‘Arcadia’ and (perhaps) others on BB, she doesn’t have the strongest voice to begin with. This should be apparent to at least her older Stans by now. She’s in the Debbie Harry/Stevie Nicks category, not in the Whitney Houston/Linda Ronstadt/Ann Wilson/Tori Amos category. Outside of the studio, her vocal ability is greatly reduced, as most live footage reveals.

I don’t think an album by any artist has to a narrative, a concept, or overall cohesion. It may purport to have one of all of those, but that’s another issue. I like a handful of songs on each of Lana’s albums and I don’t ask for or expect more than that. If I find more than a few on an album of hers, great.

It's the Donald Trump of Lana albums, for many. Addendum: in fact, I think many members prefer Donald Trump as President to BB in Lana's official catalog.

Sure, thank you. It's my pleasure.