An Outside Perspective

[Monicker 3,030]

Don’t know if this is exactly thread worthy and how much discussion it can really spur, but i thought it was worth sharing. Maybe we can just use this thread to collect the more interesting (positive!) opinions on Lana from non-celebrities from unlikely places? God, that’s a mouthful (i kind of feel like LDR crusader Love Lana Like Life right now). 

 

Anyway, i’m always interested in seeing how things that i’m really into are evaluated by those from other corners of the universe. I just think it’s fascinating to get the perspective of people who aren’t so on the inside like us obsessed freaks. I think it’s easy sometimes to forget about the more "casual" listener’s views. The subject of Lana in particular is of interest to me in this context because it still puzzles me how she seems to have totally eluded a less pop-culture-oriented audience. So when i see someone who's coming from another part of the music world and they “get” it, the geek in me gets excited. 

 

Anyway, the point to all of this is that i was on the Beach Boys messageboard when, to my delight, i see the name Lana Del Rey suddenly pop up. What was interesting to me was to see BTD’s production described in a way i’ve never heard before. I'll use spoilers because this is getting long. 

 

 

 

 

The person’s comment was: 

 

 

Picked up a Lana Del Rey album the other day from my local vinyl shop just because it was there and was cheap. Sounds great, even though her deliberate "anti-production" won't sound exactly amazing in any format.

 

Hmmm, “anti-production”? What does that mean? I mean, i know what it means, but as applied to the overproduced Born to Die? What? So i asked.

 

I’ll just post the whole exchange because i think this guy’s answers are really interesting and well said, and i thought it’d be neat to share a perspective that isn't coming from the media or the tumblr peanut gallery. Plus, it’s cool to find an opportunity to talk Lana outside of here. 

 

So, after my asking what he meant by “anti-production,” he wrote: 

 

 

Because her stuff sounds like something someone made at home on good but consumer grade gear. It's like a friend down the street having a sister you have a weird sort of crush on and she asks you to come into the room (making sure you shut the door behind you) and listen to some songs she's been working on but you're not supposed to tell anyone about it.... Like her or not, she's pure expression. She seems to give no shit about doing what a pop-tart (or indie-queen) of the current strain is supposed to do. Her stuff is awkward and imperfect yet brimming with confidence at the same time.... Defiantly head scratching material of the best sort.

 

To which i responded: 

 

 

That's really, really well put and pretty much exactly how i think of her/have described her before. It's nice to hear that people are looking past the surface and seeing those qualities in her. She's undoubtedly an anomaly. I think the syntax in my post was awkward, and thus my point confusing: liking her is not what makes me scratch my head (it makes sense on so many levels; by the way, i can't keep track of how many parallels i've drawn between her and the Beach Boys, not to mention having lost count of how many times she has mentioned them in interviews), what confused me about your post was your description "anti-production" because i've never heard that perspective in regards to Born to Die, an album that is often described as overproduced. "Anti-production" makes me think of no production, maybe something like Wild Honey or Smiley Smile, what a lot of people would describe as "under produced." Nonetheless, i see your point about the record's production. You should check out her first record if you haven't already--where the real magic is.

 

And he wrote back: 

 

 

What I think I meant by anti-production was to contrast it to all the stupid things both pop stars and indie "kids" think they have to do nowadays. Lana Del Rey seems to think (quite rightly) that her ideas are more important than their execution of how they might rise or fall as to whatever professional standards people seem to expect and take for granted. If you ignore her voice (which isn't "perfect" either but has perfect character, which she seems to grasp) they are quite clumsy and could have been done lots and lots "better" ... But this is something that excites me about any kind of art. That feeling that if the person were to sit back, take a breath and really consider what they're doing and give a damn about it being "good" enough for people to judge: the idea will be gone! It's like how Brian dubbed Pet Sounds down really clumsily and quickly as if it would escape his grasp if he took too much time or thought about it....

 

 

[lola 6,617]

Just search for "Lana Del Ray" on Tumblr tbh.

[Coney Island King 25,082]

Beach Boys forum? the fuck.

[YUNGATA 14,944]

What a lovely description of Lana. I find it hard to put into word why I like her as much as I do, particularly to other people who don't "get" her. Thus far I've just been describing her as a sound I've never heard before that is still vaguely familiar and comforting. This however, is much more eloquent.

[FREEDOM 307]

I recommended this guy i know to listen to AKA lizzy grant, he first said this:

 

 

then later when i saw him, he said that the music was 'a bit chaotic' and 'raw' which is 'rare to find now'. he preferred it over BTD and said if she makes anymore music like AKALG then he'd buy it. what i found interesting is that he doesn't listen to any other music similar to BTD or AKALG, he mainly listens to hip hop and r&b. info on the guy: he's 19 and your average joe. If you want can i ask him some q's.

[Hundred Dollar Bill 21,461]

Keep us updated with that conversation? It's a really interesting read!  

[ednafrau 831]

what a great exchange thanks for sharing, monicker!

i love how he describes her in a way i hadn't thought of before, and what he says at the end about allowing yourself to be unpolished because capturing an idea that might slip away at any moment is what gives it its immediacy, the feeling of it being alive, as opposed to the overproduction that rids it of any "imperfection" and makes it less exciting and "real".

[Hellion 991]

 ... But this is something that excites me about any kind of art. That feeling that if the person were to sit back, take a breath and really consider what they're doing and give a damn about it being "good" enough for people to judge: the idea will be gone!

 

I love this. 

[Allie 183]

That was really nice to read. It's one of the best things about music, books or movies: randomly finding it, giving a try and seeing where it goes. That person was able to synthesize the whole essence of Lana's music without necessarily checking it all: first records, unreleased stuff, everything. I've never thought of BTD like that before. Lana is so raw as Lizzy, May Jailer, Rich Whores, Sparkle Jump Rope Queen or whatever, if you think. That natural condition is still with her somehow and I think it always will. I love how the person mentioned Pet Sounds and the way it was dubbed to express the idea of snaring inspiration before it's gone. Not caring or overthinking that much. Clumsy or imperfect, it's still going to be there, in its real form. That's quite amazing. Thinking about that, I remember how we have always discussed about the definition of her genre and we could never find anything specific. Thanks for sharing, Monicker. It's totally thread worthy! Always nice to see things from another perspective. 

[jazzmasters 158]

Beach Boys forum? the fuck.

What about it? One of the 5 most known American bands of all time have a forum.... and? 

[Monicker 3,030]

That was really nice to read. It's one of the best things about music, books or movies: randomly finding it, giving a try and seeing where it goes. That person was able to synthesize the whole essence of Lana's music without necessarily checking it all: first records, unreleased stuff, everything. I've never thought of BTD like that before. Lana is so raw as Lizzy, May Jailer, Rich Whores, Sparkle Jump Rope Queen or whatever, if you think. That natural condition is still with her somehow and I think it always will. I love how the person mentioned Pet Sounds and the way it was dubbed to express the idea of snaring inspiration before it's gone. Not caring or overthinking that much. Clumsy or imperfect, it's still going to be there, in its real form. That's quite amazing. Thinking about that, I remember how we have always discussed about the definition of her genre and we could never find anything specific. Thanks for sharing, Monicker. It's totally thread worthy! Always nice to see things from another perspective. 

 

Yeah, nicely put. Although i wouldn't say that it's not caring. More like not caring too much to the point where you've stifled your creation. Caring enough that you believe in what you're doing and seeing your vision through, but always letting your creation breathe a little and kind of take on a life of its own. Leave the life in there, and life is imperfect. You always hear a lot of artists talk about the creation guiding them rather than them guiding the creation. Like they're being taken along for a ride as this thing just flows out of them. Some people will even go as far as referring to it as feeling like they're a vessel for God's expression (Brian Wilson, for example, has said something similar before about creating Pet Sounds). I don't know that that sort of "divine" inspiration necessarily fits the character of Lana's work though just because she's so staunchly idiosyncratic that her stuff lacks the more "universal" appeal that is usually associated with works that are often described like this.

 

There's something naive and awkward about her that i love and i think ties into this idea of the imperfect. Lana is all about a feeling. Imagine how terrible it'd be if she wasn't as resolute and confident, and she just allowed some record label dudes to iron out her quirks and sense of self, distilling her down to just a good singing voice, and stripping away all the nuances and weird little details that make her her. 

 

 

 

What about it? One of the 5 most known American bands of all time have a forum.... and? 

 

Or around ten forums (but only one good one) 

[Allie 183]

Yeah, nicely put. Although i wouldn't say that it's not caring. More like not caring too much to the point where you've stifled your creation. Caring enough that you believe in what you're doing and seeing your vision through, but always letting your creation breathe a little and kind of take on a life of its own. Leave the life in there, and life is imperfect. You always hear a lot of artists talk about the creation guiding them rather than them guiding the creation. Like they're being taken along for a ride as this thing just flows out of them. Some people will even go as far as referring to it as feeling like they're a vessel for God's expression (Brian Wilson, for example, has said something similar before about creating Pet Sounds). I don't know that that sort of "divine" inspiration necessarily fits the character of Lana's work though just because she's so staunchly idiosyncratic that her stuff lacks the more "universal" appeal that is usually associated with works that are often described like this.

 

There's something naive and awkward about her that i love and i think ties into this idea of the imperfect. Lana is all about a feeling. Imagine how terrible it'd be if she wasn't as resolute and confident, and she just allowed some record label dudes to iron out her quirks and sense of self, distilling her down to just a good singing voice, and stripping away all the nuances and weird little details that make her her.

 

Totally agreed! That's what I wanted to say, musicians will care about their work, their music. It's just that overanalyzing ruins the spontaneous feeling of the creation. I think Lana isn't necessarily included in the "divine inspiration" club too. She gives me kind of the same impression that poets from the beat generation do. It feels like they're spitting the words on the paper, describing what's happening with them quickly. Lana, for the amount of songs she has, seems to be someone who is always writing, no matter how well or badly. Her main point seems to be telling stories about her experiences with her own codes, favorite words and names. It's all honesty with a bit of fantasy. I don't think she has many songs with relevant epiphany in them. I could say Last Girl On Earth has a touch of her early death epiphany, but generally she's mostly a down to earth artist. That in the sense of telling her stories rather than having an idea out of nowhere about some specific subject, because other than that she's pretty lunatic.

 

I love that she's delicate in a way - with her shyness and nervousness - but she's also bold and confident enough to tell what she wants and what she doesn't when it comes to her music. I don't think I'd be THIS into her if she wasn't full of these little weird details.

[Monicker 3,030]

 

I think Lana isn't necessarily included in the "divine inspiration" club too. She gives me kind of the same impression that poets from the beat generation do. It feels like they're spitting the words on the paper, describing what's happening with them quickly. Lana, for the amount of songs she has, seems to be someone who is always writing, no matter how well or badly. Her main point seems to be telling stories about her experiences with her own codes, favorite words and names. It's all honesty with a bit of fantasy. I don't think she has many songs with relevant epiphany in them. I could say Last Girl On Earth has a touch of her early death epiphany, but generally she's mostly a down to earth artist. That in the sense of telling her stories rather than having an idea out of nowhere about some specific subject, because other than that she's pretty lunatic.

 

I love that she's delicate in a way - with her shyness and nervousness - but she's also bold and confident enough to tell what she wants and what she doesn't when it comes to her music. I don't think I'd be THIS into her if she wasn't full of these little weird details.

 

I absolutely love everything you've written here. This is one of my very favorite descriptions i've ever read of her. You really hit the nail on the head on a lot of points. Definitely a Beat and stream-of-consciousness thing going on, but, of course, filtered through her very singular lens. Great point about how it seems she's always writing, good or bad. That's a big thing about her, that idea that we get so many different levels of quality from her, the warts and all. I love that in artists. It's not too precious or overly calculated. She's not afraid to try out things and maybe fall flat. I love that she can have this amazing song sitting right next to something awful and kind of perplexing. And, as you suggested, there's a quickness, a spontaneity to it, that whole approach of just getting it out no matter what. Don't think about it too much, just get it out and it'll sort of figure itself out. That's a really big factor in her work, i think. And i think a lot of her charm lies there. And, yes, very much using her own codes, i think that's the first time i've heard anyone really nail that aspect of her artistry. There's also the repetition. This is what i've alluded to before as a kind of neurotic obsessiveness almost. I like the down to earth artist descriptor. And the paradoxes--shy and reserved, yet confident, assertive. Matches the wild variance of her musical and fashion styles, too. Complex person, artist, persona, the whole package. 

[kristinaj 1,166]

what a great exchange thanks for sharing, monicker!

i love how he describes her in a way i hadn't thought of before, and what he says at the end about allowing yourself to be unpolished because capturing an idea that might slip away at any moment is what gives it its immediacy, the feeling of it being alive, as opposed to the overproduction that rids it of any "imperfection" and makes it less exciting and "real".

 

Honestly this is the reason why Honeymoon doesn't live up to her other albums

[slang 1,509]

Haven't a clue really, but the careless, let's just get the idea out there before it is considered to death attitude only suggests a "jazz attitude" to me. For LDR, this attitude seems most prevalent in some (but not all) of the leaks/unreleased, May Jailer, some of AKA, and Honeymoon. I say Honeymoon because that album seems, imo, like an album most likely resulting from LDR, RN, and KM (the writers/producers) mainly jamming in the studio. BTD doesn't seem that; it had a calculated style (Thomas Newman style?) that songs were forced to fit into. This mostly worked, but sometimes it really didn't (e.g., the demos for Lucky Ones and Diet Mountain Dew seem much better). Also Carmen has an a cappela demo that sounds more like modern music than the period piece that made it onto the album (in that case fitting it to a style requirement worked rather well). Further we now know (i.e., after the original post) that UV started with some songs in sketch but fully-produced studio form, which were then used as a blueprints to fashion live alternate performance versions. As I recall, what impressed Auerbach about LDR (other than the quality of the songs) was LDR's ability to keep up with his more jazz-oriented studio musician friends as they interpreted the songs.

 

As far as: "What I think I meant by anti-production was to contrast it to all the stupid things both pop stars and indie "kids" think they have to do nowadays. Lana Del Rey seems to think (quite rightly) that her ideas are more important than their execution of how they might rise or fall as to whatever professional standards people seem to expect and take for granted." All this suggests to me is her divergence in taste (which is broader and more older-targeted than most pop stars) combined with her desire to experiment. Both factors are going to make her seem different, because in fact she is. Also with experiments, there's the necessity of failures as well as successes, but this is tricky to assess, because her tastes are potentially broader than ours.

[Jazzmin 297]

Thank you for refreshing this thread, @slang ! Brilliant thoughts on art don't have an expiry date.

 

It always astonished me how, after I got sucked into Lanaversum, I never minded Lana's cringe-worthy lyrics, anal about lyrics as I am. And no, I don't blindly worship everything she creates, it's just that they don't defer me from listening to her music although they surely would if sung by some other artist, even another of my favorite ones. It's not only about me enjoying her art the way it is (which is surely the case, too). It feels like reading a schoolgirl's diary, with hearts over the i's and a flagrant spelling mistake here and there, messily written because she's rushing for a date. So toe-curling but by the time I realize it, I've gotten too addicted to stop. Disarming? Cute? That's for sure. And there's something more.

 

Each and every idea has a right to exist here, nothing's too intimate, stupid, bad, shameful, you name it. That's what creates the ephemerality of Lana's music, as far as I can see. And while such conclusions might come naturally if we scrutinize the unreleased stuff, they come across as impressive to me if someone discusses a released album from an outsider's point of view.

 

Maybe that "roughness" - for the lack of a better word - is so strong that it remains palpable despite all the layers of (over)production?

In my book, Lana's style adds a quite interesting angle to her art and is no less important than her melodies or the meaning of her lyrics. Just like the melody of the words she chooses, I don't think it is "shallow" to appreciate it. 

[slang 1,509]

Thank you for refreshing this thread, @slang ! Brilliant thoughts on art don't have an expiry date.

 

 

You should have thanked @kristinaj for bumping the thread, I was responding (well just reacting) to her post above mine. Also it's interesting that I'm not getting notifications for @slang mentions in posts, which seems to be a change in forum behavior (I did before), perhaps it's because the name is also a word, or perhaps because it's a broken behavior for everyone. I'll @evilentity as a query about that; he might know if it's a legit bug.

 

Lyrics are a complicated issue, and I've never thought of lyrics as the aspect that might be anti-produced in LDR's work, but I think that's a legitimate speculation/observation. Typically when I consider her lyrics I compare her to her peers and songs from the old days (i.e. the eras she's said to emulate) and I find her at least comparable (often favorably). It's interesting that when she covers a song they tend to have really excellent lyrics relative to the rest of the album (TOW, DLMBM) and she usually gets dinged for that in some reviews (e.g., "the song with the best lyrics is not hers", I think I've heard several times).

[Jazzmin 297]

 

You should have thanked @@kristinaj for bumping the thread, I was responding (well just reacting) to her post above mine.

 

 

Oops, of course! I'm so goddamn chaotic. Thank you @@kristinaj!

 

Also it's interesting that I'm not getting notifications for @slang mentions in posts, which seems to be a change in forum behavior (I did before), perhaps it's because the name is also a word, or perhaps because it's a broken behavior for everyone. I'll @evilentity as a query about that; he might know if it's a legit bug.

 

 

Sorry, I completely forgot to add that "member=" code.

 

Lyrics are a complicated issue, and I've never thought of lyrics as the aspect that might be anti-produced in LDR's work, but I think that's a legitimate speculation/observation.

 

Now that I come to think about it, "anti-production" is not exactly the word I had on my mind while ruminating on Lana's lyrics, which I touched upon in the first place because IMHO they exemplify very well the "take-a-breath-and-the-idea-will-be-gone" conclusion that @@Monicker 's interlocutor eventually draws. I'm glad, though, that I sparked an interesting thought, even if by chance .