FROGGO

Christ, I feel the same way.
 
I think her discography is terribly overrated and overhyped, and her "saving grace" -- her ability to perform and put on a show -- really isn't all that great as it's been made out to be. She is NOT the female Michael Jackson, imo. While she is a great technical performer; hitting every mark, every note, carrying herself with the "perfect" amount of sass, etc, it all seems very calculated, and not at all genuine. Every move she makes seems so deliberate, the way she moves her body (not sure how to describe it, she's technically doing the moves correctly but doesn't move like an actual dancer), her voice, although brilliant, can be so affected in its delivery, portraying perfect amount of pain, the perfect amount of playfulness, the perfect amount of forcefulness. Perfect, perfect, perfect. I don't know. Her interactions with her fans and banter while on stage seem so insincere, right down to the way she smiles, throws her head back and laughs, and that single tear that falls as she looks off into the distance while performing something that "moves her". It's as though there's something kind of robotic that's holding her back. It's as though her fixation on her image and appearing a certain way transcends to the stage and effects her delivery. I just can't get into it, as much as I want to and as talented as she undoubtedly is. I've just never once gotten the impression that she gets truly lost in her performances. 
 
I feel like Britney at her peak, Freddie Mercury, two very different artists from one another -- are those on par with MJ for putting on a great fucking performance. Beyonce doesn't deserve to have her name mentioned in the same sentence as him. 
 
I touched a bit on her legendary, iconic status here. Basically, her team marketed her as a ~legend~ and ~iconic~; these were not bestowed upon her through the usual means of time passing and retrospection as they ought to be be. Funny how carefully worded press releases, demands for media outlets, and certain marketing can give someone a title and status that should only be earned in time and not as a hungry grab for a crown the public never set upon their head, if that makes any sense. 
 
ANYWAY, I said a lot more than I was meaning to and I only popped in here to mention a couple of op-ed pieces I feel hit the nail on the end in regards to both Beyonce's and Rihanna's career. The first touches on what @@elllipsis mentioned about her lack of notable songs despite her supposed status in music...
 
Beyonce: An Icon Who's Struggled to Make Iconic Music?
 
AND
 
Like She's the Only Girl in the World: The improbable, unstoppable success of Rihanna
  -- Choice quote:
          "Mariah, Whitney, Beyoncé, Gaga—these stars feel like stars. Rihanna feels like something else: a one hit-wonder several dozen times over."
 
(What is this accuracy? What a succinct way of putting it.) 

Let @@Hellion have "Queen B" for Lil Kim, Bey has her sights set higher
 
 
 

Not at all basic, anyone that loves and appreciates the duo of Long Way 2 Go and Me & U could NEVER be described as basic   
 
Please, Godney and The Greatest Pop Album of All Time should not be associated with these lessors and flops.   
 
I'll make a mental note to include her in the next batch of updates! (Although I'm not really a fan tbh...  )

Question for you: what do you think of the tactics used by Katy and her team to ensure those number ones? Do you think they were shady/dishonest/cheap moves, or do you see it as fair and square and just what one must do to be successful in a cut-throat music industry? I'm interested because in your opinion because a) You're a Katy fan, but you're not a stan so you'll be less apt to blindly applaud her for whatever she does and b) I believe you studied marketing (?), so it'd be cool to get your opinion on this.
 
I myself am pretty indifferent to the entire situation -- I'm not outraged or think it's horrible or am heavily invested in this -- but I can't help but think that MJ was just a little bit more deserving of it than Katy because he used absolutely no tricks/stunts to get his number ones.
 
What does everyone else think?
 
I'm up for hearing other peoples' opinions on this too. I think I'll share my opinion after I get some sleep though.

I don't know what it is, I just can't get behind an artist that consistently says, "I want to be a legend". The consistency in which she says this and in which its evident makes it seem as though her music is an after-thought; she's chasing that legend status first and foremost. I really and truly believe that of Beyonce. I just don't understand why someone would have that be their primary focus instead of their craft and work, but hey, to each their own.
 
Her albums have a tendency to be mediocre (except for 4, I'm a sucker for old school R&B            ) I think Beyonce's artistry is sorely lacking. As you mentioned, she's not particularly creative. She's not a risk taker. She's the epitome of safe. She's too concerned with maintaining her current stature within music to ever do anything outside of the box, and to me, that exemplifies the "music is an after-thought, legend-status is of utmost importance" she seems to hold near and dear while making decisions. I just really think her music is suffering at the result of it. She doesn't need to have hits, but churning out mediocre album after mediocre album certainly isn't helping her cause imo.
 
I totally agree with you on her being the most driven artist in the industry right now. If I had Beyonce's drive, holy fuck, I could have a Phd right now. Or have published 4 novels. Or own my own business. Or be one of the most successful people in my area of expertise, whatever that may be.  We'd all be crazy successful if we had her work ethic 

This thread is on the verge of becoming a giant clusterfuck and I love it 

what is this random venomous remark? It's like she wronged you personally or something   
 
edit: o i c u stirring shit up

A more extensive list of artist I hate for no reason
 
Ariana Grande
Ed Sheeran
Iggy Azaelea
Ellie Goulding

I feel personally victimized by Ariana Grande

Let @@Hellion have "Queen B" for Lil Kim, Bey has her sights set higher
 
 
 

LMAO yeah, that must be it. 'Cause TMZ, The National Enquirer & Star (to name a few) are real classy.

Oh hello Hellion
 
"Simply breathe" that's about right
 
dw I'm fucking with you I voted for Katy and Beyonce
 
 
I'd be all in for that actually. Down to give any hard-working girl a chance, I'm just usually unimpressed
 
Something you can say for Lady Gaga haters is that they're firmly set in their ways. Won't even wait for the music to determine an opinion. I really try not to let past opinions, even hatred, affect a new album cycle until I can actually formulate another opinion.

Actually here for this, but until then...
 

The thing is that Rihanna is the only guaranteed success on this list. Look what happened to Ke$ha. It could happen to anyone! But Rihanna's marketing is a well-oiled machine. And yet she's the most prayed-for flop
 
Idk who is voting for Britney because she's like the least offensive person ever

I definitely understand how you meant it and she most definitely does do it in a very "regal", elegant way. No one can accuse B of being anything but that now! 
 
(Also, I wiki-ed MPB and have now fulfilled my "learn about one new thing" goal for this day  )
 
I think it's interesting to dissect both layers (the urban side of living in the black American South and the regal side of honouring your ancestry) simultaneously and how one works with one another. Admittedly, it's something I don't know much about nor can I begin to understand the black experience in America for... well, very obvious reasons.
 
I think approaching and honouring your ancestry in a very regal way is something that is far more digestible and appropriate for the GP, especially in the case of a black artist. I'm not too sure how much of a choice it is, between one or the other. It seems that the Queen-like route she went is the only acceptable way to honour a facet of her culture and heritage considering her place in music and her current success. Would she have the same success if she were far more open and daring with her more urban roots, or to use other people's words, if she were "more black"? (I cringe at that phrasing ). Could she still obtain and maintain the same level of success? There are many things blacks have to do in order to be seen as "acceptable": code-switching is one, relaxing hair and weaves would be another, etc. Of course, image is a huge part of success. Would she still top Most Beautiful/Sexy lists if she wore her hair kinky and natural? Would she still get million dollar endorsements and deals? I'm inclined to say no, unfortunately. The associations made with more urban culture are and/or a traditional black look can be quite negative: unintelligent, lower-class, crass, etc. 
 
If she were a hip hop artist, this would be expected of her, almost welcome in a way... but she's not. She's an R&B artist with increasingly pop leanings, because pop is THE GENRE if you seek superstar success. All the greatest, most legendary, successful acts in the world are essentially pop. And to reach that world-wide audience, unfortunately she has to monitor the urban side of her, be more presentable, non-threatening, be safe. She is still urban though. To use your phrasing (although not verbatim), she's urban, but not too urban. Classy and regal, but not posh and uppity. I think it's a very delicate balancing act, something she has to consider because of the colour of her skin and her upbringing. It's certainly not something Katy Perry or Lady Gaga have to take into consideration, y'know? She's always batting off criticism for "acting too white" or "not acting black enough" (wtf?!) and it's enough to make my head spin and I don't know how she deals with this crap. It's really disheartening how urban culture can in some instances be positively correlated with being "un-respectable".
 
Because of this, I would say that her honouring her ancestry in that sort of Queen way that you described is the only acceptable way for her to be proud of her being black in her artistry (i.e., still being able to maintain her status and success on the incredibly large scale and scope that she has).... and damn, does she do it well.
 
 
 
*shrugs* Anyway, I like studying the racial implications of things, if warranted. I probably shouldn't have hijacked this thread and dragged you into this conversation in the middle of "stan war thread". Ooops!

Actually all 5 of these girls are in my faves But Gaga is my #1 and Beyoncé would be last on my list. I have like 0 hype for her comeback atm, because I feel like it's actually probably not even happening this year tbh.

I definitely understand how you meant it and she most definitely does do it in a very "regal", elegant way. No one can accuse B of being anything but that now! 
 
(Also, I wiki-ed MPB and have now fulfilled my "learn about one new thing" goal for this day  )
 
I think it's interesting to dissect both layers (the urban side of living in the black American South and the regal side of honouring your ancestry) simultaneously and how one works with one another. Admittedly, it's something I don't know much about nor can I begin to understand the black experience in America for... well, very obvious reasons.
 
I think approaching and honouring your ancestry in a very regal way is something that is far more digestible and appropriate for the GP, especially in the case of a black artist. I'm not too sure how much of a choice it is, between one or the other. It seems that the Queen-like route she went is the only acceptable way to honour a facet of her culture and heritage considering her place in music and her current success. Would she have the same success if she were far more open and daring with her more urban roots, or to use other people's words, if she were "more black"? (I cringe at that phrasing ). Could she still obtain and maintain the same level of success? There are many things blacks have to do in order to be seen as "acceptable": code-switching is one, relaxing hair and weaves would be another, etc. Of course, image is a huge part of success. Would she still top Most Beautiful/Sexy lists if she wore her hair kinky and natural? Would she still get million dollar endorsements and deals? I'm inclined to say no, unfortunately. The associations made with more urban culture are and/or a traditional black look can be quite negative: unintelligent, lower-class, crass, etc. 
 
If she were a hip hop artist, this would be expected of her, almost welcome in a way... but she's not. She's an R&B artist with increasingly pop leanings, because pop is THE GENRE if you seek superstar success. All the greatest, most legendary, successful acts in the world are essentially pop. And to reach that world-wide audience, unfortunately she has to monitor the urban side of her, be more presentable, non-threatening, be safe. She is still urban though. To use your phrasing (although not verbatim), she's urban, but not too urban. Classy and regal, but not posh and uppity. I think it's a very delicate balancing act, something she has to consider because of the colour of her skin and her upbringing. It's certainly not something Katy Perry or Lady Gaga have to take into consideration, y'know? She's always batting off criticism for "acting too white" or "not acting black enough" (wtf?!) and it's enough to make my head spin and I don't know how she deals with this crap. It's really disheartening how urban culture can in some instances be positively correlated with being "un-respectable".
 
Because of this, I would say that her honouring her ancestry in that sort of Queen way that you described is the only acceptable way for her to be proud of her being black in her artistry (i.e., still being able to maintain her status and success on the incredibly large scale and scope that she has).... and damn, does she do it well.
 
 
 
*shrugs* Anyway, I like studying the racial implications of things, if warranted. I probably shouldn't have hijacked this thread and dragged you into this conversation in the middle of "stan war thread". Ooops!

September 3rd, that's 3rd quarter boo   
 
I am so ready for an album of Mariah knock offs and late 90s/early 00s Rnb influenced jams   
 
She also takes the whole Lolita look to an entirely different level that Lizzy/Lana has never done 
 
This is super interesting that you mentioned this. I think I'd add on that she's also black, but in a non-threatening way. It's interesting to think about the code-switching she's obligated to do because she's chasing success through a pop-oriented route and not a hip hop one.

How can something be anticipated when it happens so often?
 
I can't wait for all of you to seethe when Blackout 2.0 slaughters the charts. Britney is writing for it & her label is giving her full creative control so I know it'll be her best work yet. To those that think her music "isn't hers" or that she "couldn't write a single decent song on her own," you should check out Everytime, My Baby, Mannequin, Touch of My Hand, etc. as there are PLENTY of newer & older songs she wrote herself that were very good. If you decide not to see for yourself, that's fine. Stay pressed while Brit knocks your fave off the charts this winter.
 

edit: WHERE DID THE REST OF MY REPLY GO??
edit2: what is happening to my text post.
edit3: sorry i had to write it so aggressively this is the 3rd time i've had to write it
 
YAY WE CAN FAN GIRL
CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR IT (HOPEFULLY IT DOES/DOESN'T LEAK)
HOPEFULLY THERE ARE MORE KILLERS THAN FILLERS
HER BELIEVE TOUR SET WAS AVERAGE SO IM WORRIED, BUT HER VOICE SOUNDED AMAZING
I'M PUMPED
 
HAHA! I KNOW! It's so freaking weird, how can you so easily be a child but then be the next minute omfg 

She definitely doesn't push boundaries but I don't think that boundaries constantly need to be pushed in music, a reason why I loved 4 so much and as you stated it's completely the opposite of new, she chose to make an old school R&B record instead of some dance music.
 
I do think if you are not writing your own music you can never be an artist just a singer.
Btw in my last post Herself was auto corrected to Wesley

I don't know what it is, I just can't get behind an artist that consistently says, "I want to be a legend". The consistency in which she says this and in which its evident makes it seem as though her music is an after-thought; she's chasing that legend status first and foremost. I really and truly believe that of Beyonce. I just don't understand why someone would have that be their primary focus instead of their craft and work, but hey, to each their own.
 
Her albums have a tendency to be mediocre (except for 4, I'm a sucker for old school R&B            ) I think Beyonce's artistry is sorely lacking. As you mentioned, she's not particularly creative. She's not a risk taker. She's the epitome of safe. She's too concerned with maintaining her current stature within music to ever do anything outside of the box, and to me, that exemplifies the "music is an after-thought, legend-status is of utmost importance" she seems to hold near and dear while making decisions. I just really think her music is suffering at the result of it. She doesn't need to have hits, but churning out mediocre album after mediocre album certainly isn't helping her cause imo.
 
I totally agree with you on her being the most driven artist in the industry right now. If I had Beyonce's drive, holy fuck, I could have a Phd right now. Or have published 4 novels. Or own my own business. Or be one of the most successful people in my area of expertise, whatever that may be.  We'd all be crazy successful if we had her work ethic 

I can agree to a certain degree about Beyoncé. I think of all artists listed she is the most driven, yet she may not be the most creative. About the iconic music, no matter how good something is, unless its universally heard and successful it can't really become iconic IMO as its not recognisable or whatever. I think Beyoncé although may not have a wide library of "iconic" hits, whereas someone like Britney does. Beyonce is far more consistent and I think that's more important, she isn't a peer among rihanna, Katy perry, britney because I don't think her intentions are the same. She isn't looking for hits. She explained exactly this in Life is but a dream, discussing longevity instead of hit after hit.
 
The aura around her and Jay Z is weird. They've had the title of royalty bestowed on them, and people do look to them as gods (me included lol) partly for entertainment but they are a real power couple and both make great music IMO.
 
There is a great Destinys Child clip filmed in 1997 when Beyoncé would have been 14 or 15 whilst recording the album and the other band members are just goofing around like kids that they are and Beyoncé is just there for the business, she's carrying Wesley like a grown woman lol. I don't think she was much of a child, she had very pushy parents and I think she has always been driven, hard working and self aware and that's why I respect her!
Overall I think beyonce is just very talented
Not rihannas #PhuckYo rockstar attitude which she pushes so hard that she is even trying to convince herself

I don't know what it is, I just can't get behind an artist that consistently says, "I want to be a legend". The consistency in which she says this and in which its evident makes it seem as though her music is an after-thought; she's chasing that legend status first and foremost. I really and truly believe that of Beyonce. I just don't understand why someone would have that be their primary focus instead of their craft and work, but hey, to each their own.
 
Her albums have a tendency to be mediocre (except for 4, I'm a sucker for old school R&B            ) I think Beyonce's artistry is sorely lacking. As you mentioned, she's not particularly creative. She's not a risk taker. She's the epitome of safe. She's too concerned with maintaining her current stature within music to ever do anything outside of the box, and to me, that exemplifies the "music is an after-thought, legend-status is of utmost importance" she seems to hold near and dear while making decisions. I just really think her music is suffering at the result of it. She doesn't need to have hits, but churning out mediocre album after mediocre album certainly isn't helping her cause imo.
 
I totally agree with you on her being the most driven artist in the industry right now. If I had Beyonce's drive, holy fuck, I could have a Phd right now. Or have published 4 novels. Or own my own business. Or be one of the most successful people in my area of expertise, whatever that may be.  We'd all be crazy successful if we had her work ethic 

I'm not being serious hahaa ~ maru wanted us to shade so i was just throwing a little for fun