Southern Gothic Music

[Dark Angel 198,093]

1 minute ago, Vertimus said:

If it's authentic Southern Gothic, then the writer/musician essentially has to come from the American Deep South*. Lana can adopt a Southern Gothic vibe, tone, or mood—she adopts all kinds of styles and genres and puts them to use—but she's never going to be a tried-and-true Southern or Country artist regardless of Lasso and whatever else she does in that direction. Look at Orville Pech—he's adopted a Country music style but he's from South Africa. He's free to do as he pleases, but he can't say he's from the Deep South or even America—and Country as a musical genre really comes from all over America, not just the Deep South (though predominantly from the Deep South), unlike Southern Gothic. Southern is in the name! 

 

*It's like an other geographical area—you can do an album or write a song in the style of the early Beatles, but you will never be able to say you're a Liverpoolian if you weren't born there.  Look how Joni Mitchell has consistently stressed that her music was formed and shaped by her early life as a Canadian Prairie Girl. The regional area we're raised or live in often seeps into us, for better or worse.   

 

i wouldn't necessarily say that just because someone wasn't born in the south doesn't mean that couldn't write an authentic southern gothic book, or create media that's authentic southern gothic in other forms of media, i think it's just about getting it right and perhaps doing research on different topics pertaining to the south, it's history, and what makes southern gothic southern gothic, although, i will say, i think people are at their core, the most familiar with where they grew up, and can probably create art inspired by it more effortlessly and intuitively in comparison to them creating art about different regions that they didn't grow up in, or spend a lot of time in

[Vertimus 9,362]

6 minutes ago, Dark Angel said:

 

i wouldn't necessarily say that just because someone wasn't born in the south doesn't mean that couldn't write an authentic southern gothic book, or create media that's authentic southern gothic in other forms of media, i think it's just about getting it right and perhaps doing research on different topics pertaining to the south, it's history, and what makes southern gothic southern gothic, although, i will say, i think people are at their core, the most familiar with where they grew up, and can probably create art inspired by it more effortlessly and intuitively in comparison to them creating art about different regions that they didn't grow up in, or spend a lot of time in

Then that's like saying I could move to Jamaica and write a dance hall, ska, or reggae song and say it's authentic, even though I'm American and from the Deep South. 

 

I agree non-Southerns can write books, plays, or songs in the Southern Gothic style, but it will be limited in how far they can say it's authentic through and through. 

[Vertimus 9,362]

It's also important to remember that the reason so much—or almost all, if not all—of the late50s-early-60s Folk Revival was criticized was because almost none of its American practitioners came from backgrounds rooted in Americana or came from impoverished rural backgrounds, where American folk music derived from Britain was born with the first Scottish, Irish, and English settlers (later settlers of all kinds, from Italian to Polish to Cuban, etc.—brought their own country's folk music with them, and the slaves and the descendants of slaves whose families originated in Africa, even if by way of the Caribbean, certainly brought their own musical traditions and folk songs with them from their first arrival on these shores). 

 

In the Britain of the late 50s and early 60s, many of the folk practitioners had grown up in rural poverty where the folk songs of their region had never died out or ceased to be sung or celebrated, but been passed down through the generations and also recorded as soon as they could be. I'm referring to people like Ewan MacColl, A.L. Lloyd, and the Watersons, and then later-60s artists like Donovan and Fairport Convention who admired those artists and began writing music in the folk style, often with more progressive rock, electric guitar, or jazz elements, which came to be called folk music, even though it would more accurately be called music in the folk music style. 

 

Just as early Joni Mitchell came to be known as folk, though in fact it was contemporary music in the folk style. Early Leonard Cohen, ditto. 

[DeadSeaOfMercury 21,467]

37 minutes ago, Charlottexseax said:

 

 

 

Y'all I don't wanna be mean or whatever but let's not bastardise the meaning of southern gothic please. Mitski is not southern gothic. Florence is a british woman. Let's keep it sensible!!

 

Southern Gothic is a genre that originated in literature but then crossed over multiple media (like music, movies, video games) and, as the word suggests, has its roots in the deep South. The "creepy", "unsettling", "dark" environment that SG is mostly associated with nowadays are real but they're just the tip of the iceberg, and probably its easily "digestible" elements.

 

To really understand SG as an aesthetic current you have to understand the South of the US, especially as it pertains to the Reconstruction era of its history. Alienation of the self, religious fanatism (like cults), trauma, loss, racial and sexual violence... these are all elements of SG, an aesthetic that is mainly born out of the decadence, both moral and artistic, that followed the Secession. 

 

Southern gothic doesn't just mean whatever is creepy or sad or whatever... Lana Del Ray AKA Lizzy Grant is a good example in a lot of ways of southern gothic and Americana. 

I live in the south.

Have you heard Lover To Lover?

It definitely is in the same spirit as Creedence Clearwater Revival.

AKA does Not sound like “Southern Gothic”

[Embach 35,748]

4 minutes ago, DeadSeaOfMercury said:

I live in the south.

Have you heard Lover To Lover?

It definitely is in the same spirit as Creedence Clearwater Revival.

AKA does Not sound like “Southern Gothic”

Imo Ceremonials is goth, or with gothic elements, but not southern gothic. It has more gospel than goth tbh.

[Charlottexseax 7,754]

7 minutes ago, DeadSeaOfMercury said:

I live in the south.

Have you heard Lover To Lover?

It definitely is in the same spirit as Creedence Clearwater Revival.

AKA does Not sound like “Southern Gothic”

Southern gothic is a literary genre and an aesthetic not a sound. This is like saying a song sounds post modern or structuralist. AKA has elements that can be associated with SG even though she’s not really southern so we can obviously debate on whether they’re really SG or not 

[Vertimus 9,362]

Another truth about the South and Deep South is that, more than any other region of the United States, it's maintained its music, food, and manner traditions while still progressing, unlike almost every other part of the country, which has abandoned theirs and become largely homogenized—though there are of course small pockets of the United States that remain true to their traditions of all varieties. 

[Veinsineon 74,856]

1 hour ago, Vertimus said:

Another truth about the South and Deep South is that, more than any other region of the United States, it's maintained its music, food, and manner traditions while still progressing, unlike almost every other part of the country, which has abandoned theirs and become largely homogenized—

not to get political, i promise!!! but this is a reach 

[Lasso 12,294]

It's kinda funny to me that she's throwing Southern Gothic around now, instead of back when Ocean Blvd came out. The themes of religion, decadence, generational trauma and abuse were so present in that album, and she even took inspiration from a movie that was based on  a Tennessee Wiliiams play for the cover. 

 

Even though her experiences didn't necessarily happen in the South, she managed to transpose the themes to fit her life, so Ocean Blvd is probably her most Southern Gothic album. I hope I'm articulating this correctly lol

 

So yeah, I'm curious to see (and hear) what she means. But if I wanted to make a bet, I would say SG is the aesthetic, and maybe Southern music in general is the genre she took inspiration from. We know that the writing is less autobiographical, though she could still talk about heavy themes, but it looks like the album will be lighter and easier to listen to, so yeah. I'm curious. 

[ivory almond 13,823]

I feel like the only artist I listen to that is ACTUALLY southern gothic is Ethel Cain

[shadesofblue 12,531]

2 hours ago, Vertimus said:

But those aren't Southern in any sense of the word. Southern Gothic means rooted in the American Deep South, so Hozier or Fleetwood Mac can't be examples, as Stevie and Lindsey were not born or raised in the Deep South and the rest of the band are British—as is Hozier (I realize it wasn't you who put his name/song forth). What I think you're describing are witchy-sounding songs, of which the Eagles' Witchy Woman would be an excellent example, among several others of theirs, like the excellent Too Many Hands. 

 

Let's not appropriate regions. 

You’re right, those aren’t technically southern gothic. I was more looking at it through Lana’s version of descriptions since she describes genres very loosely. COTCC was described as midwestern grunge and it did have that midwestern aspect, but I don’t think most would classify it as grunge necessarily. I think one of the obvious examples would be Ethel Cain. The artists I mentioned do lack that southern/americana style but imo I could see lana having a somewhat similar sound of an Americana version of hozier. I didn’t mean to imply it was an exact match to that genre but I see some similarities. 

[AngelHeadedHipster 2,726]

These are a few songs that I feel have Southern Gothic Vibes to them

 

 

 

 

[Vertimus 9,362]

23 hours ago, Veinsineon said:

not to get political, i promise!!! but this is a reach 

It sure has changed a great deal over the last 50 to 70 years, like most things, for better and for worse.

 

When I lived there, it was a paradise, and the people were civil—they were like the Cleaver or Anderson families on Leave It To Beaver or Father Knows Best.

 

There are all kinds of Southern and/or country people—from farmers to rednecks to "hill people" to lower- and middle- middle-class people to urban poor and professionals and 'yuppies.' 

 

Unfortunately, from my perspective at least, redneckism prospered, even exploded, throughout the South since that time, including much of Florida (part of the South but not the Deep South) all the way down to Miami. After we moved from Nashville, we moved to Miami, and I watched as redneckism slowly took over (which is why I moved to NYC and have been here ever since).

 

So adult Floridians I knew whose parents were also like the Cleavers or Andersons instead embraced redneckism and started speaking like this: "I'm gonna go to Dunkin' and get me some munchkins," instead of the King's English they were raised with and spoke as youths and young adults. 

[DeadSeaOfMercury 21,467]

 

[X8vinylScratchX 3,434]

Nicole Dollanganer and sorta kinda Katie Lane Garside are southern gothic, in a unique way kind of akin to Ethel Cain.

 

It's kind of hard to pin down because it is an established sound, but it also could be used as an aesthetic. Anything could LOOK southern gothic, but the sound seems somewhat broad. Anything under the umbrella of "country" or "acoustic" could be southern gothic.

[Dark Angel 198,093]

1 hour ago, X8vinylScratchX said:

Nicole Dollanganer and sorta kinda Katie Lane Garside are southern gothic, in a unique way kind of akin to Ethel Cain.

 

It's kind of hard to pin down because it is an established sound, but it also could be used as an aesthetic. Anything could LOOK southern gothic, but the sound seems somewhat broad. Anything under the umbrella of "country" or "acoustic" could be southern gothic.

 

love seeing katie jane garside mentioned <3 i'm mostly familiar with lullabies in a glass wilderness, and i feel like that album is just so unique and broad that it's difficult to say exactly what genre it is, i could definitely see lesions in the brain fitting the southern gothic label, and maybe marybell (rides to town on a pig) and sleep with wolves since they're acoustic, but there's nothing that really makes them southern gothic except for their sound, sleep with wolves doesn't even really have any discernable lyrics, and even then, sound-wise, they feel more midwestern to me

[X8vinylScratchX 3,434]

1 hour ago, Dark Angel said:

 

love seeing katie jane garside mentioned <3 i'm mostly familiar with lullabies in a glass wilderness, and i feel like that album is just so unique and broad that it's difficult to say exactly what genre it is, i could definitely see lesions in the brain fitting the southern gothic label, and maybe marybell (rides to town on a pig) and sleep with wolves since they're acoustic, but there's nothing that really makes them southern gothic except for their sound, sleep with wolves doesn't even really have any discernable lyrics, and even then, sound-wise, they feel more midwestern to me

The other project Garside was involved in, Ruby Throat, was considered a Neo-Folk group. Neo-Folk being a bizarre sub genre of folk that within itself could have some southern gothic elements but is also way too broad to define. I got into Neo-Folk because Rose McDowell from Strawberry Switchblade was involved in that scene in the 80’s, collaborating with artists like Current 93 and Death in June. Rose and David Tibet of Current 93 (and others) collaborated and formed the folk super group “Nature and Organization”, and their album “Snow Leopard Messiah” is one of the most beautiful things ever. I heard that and got into the genre, and then by extension i discovered Ruby Throat through that (i think on a rym list ). I’m no massive fan or anything but i know Garside by name from that group. The Lalleshwari project seems to be what she’s most known for nowadays. I think it got some attention on tiktok or something, or maybe grew in popularity organically thru the comparison to Nicole Dollanganger. It  seems to get lumped in aesthetically with Dollanganger often, which is understandable seeing as how they sound and look alike at times, but Garside was way ahead of her time and definitely an unspoken originator of that style and sound, coming out in what like years before Dollanganger even made music. 
 

Aesthetically, they both kind of got a horror theme. Or at the very least a slightly creepy aesthetic. That can somewhat draw a connection to southern gothic, but sonically  your right it doesn’t really resemble. Even Ruby Throat and the other neo-folk stuff doesn’t really fit the description. Although some music in that genre is definitely closer. Most of it isn’t southern country sounding enough. It’s like definitely gothic but not southern or country like.

[AngelHeadedHipster 2,726]

Here are a few more songs which give haunting Southern Gothic Vibes