Paradise - Pre-Release Thread

[Sitar 22,210]

I don't understand why I'm the only one calling her out on this. :imbeingsarcasticbitch2:

 

I think anyone would be hurt if their looks were publicly scrutinized like hers are, so it's not entirely a female issue and maybe she was wrong in that. But do I think the addition of those three words really sets back any progression or feminist thinking? No.

 

But is it not safe to say that girls' looks are bigger factors career-wise than boys' looks? Their looks are viewed more harshly, and beauty is more valued when it comes to women. So that's not uncommon ideals. Is she a progressive, individualistic thinker in that area? Obviously not. But again, I just don't see it as anti-feminist.

[Guest Maru the Cat]

I don't understand feminism to be honest. I googled the definition and I'm confused since it's not what all these social justice blogs on Tumblr make it out to be. I guess I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. I don't see anything anti-feminist with Lana being submissive since it's her choice. And isn't that what counts? It's her choice.

 

Exactly.

 

I think anyone would be hurt if their looks were publicly scrutinized like hers are, so it's not entirely a female issue and maybe she was wrong in that. But do I think the addition of those three words really sets back any progression or feminist thinking? No.

 

But is it not safe to say that girls' looks are bigger factors career-wise than boys' looks? Their looks are viewed more harshly, and beauty is more valued when it comes to women. So that's not uncommon ideals. Is she a progressive, individualistic thinker in that area? Obviously not. But again, I just don't see it as anti-feminist.

 

You're right, but it really, really irks me. I just don't think like that. If it hurts me, it hurts me as a person, not as a woman. I am more than my looks, and I don't owe it to anyone to be attractive.

 

Still, continuing the cycle of this thinking is not doing women any favours. She's not setting back the progression of feminist thinking because it already seems to have stagnated here (public thought), nor is she helping by contributing to this oppressive thinking. I just don't like when people keep perpetuating these "ideals", especially those in public eye. Speak for yourself Lana, because you sure as hell are not representing me as a woman. (Notice how I use the word woman and not girl?)

 

EDIT: I'm trying this new thing where I'm not an asshole on the forum and I calm down before I make a post. So I don't know if this is worded too harshly or anything; but bear with me, I'm trying! :3

 

Anyway, it bothers me to see women fall in line with this horrible way of thinking, and it bothers me to women themselves perpetuating this bullshit. It bothers me when I see myself thinking this way and I have to stop and correct myself. As Sitar mentioned, society is much harsher on women and these ideas are deeply ingrained in us from an incredibly young age. Even the most headstrong, independent, intelligent women might grapple with these issues. Yes, society, the media, family conditions us to think this way. Yes, there are a multitude of layers and years of this incredibly complex issue: the sociological context, historical context, even evolutionary context -- but I am a firm believer in the individual. And call me naive or too optimistic, but I think real social change can be made. To me, it's never just "Oh, just one person said that; everyone thinks it anyway" -- it starts with the individual. We make up society.

 

I'm not going to give Lana a free pass on this one. :imbeingsarcasticbitch2: Maybe she's changed, I don't know. I know I have, and I know it's possible. I'm still learning, and I'm still changing. And I also know that my daughters and my sons (if I even have children) will be taught not to perpetuate this bullshit and will not be cast into gender roles and taught to have "gender-appropriate" qualities.

 

....and I went a little overboard. Again.

 

Ooops. (._. )

[NEAL 740]

YAYO

Actually, I really like the turning of string/synth on 1:22--like a deep release of sigh.

 

One thing that I couldn't quite understand is how my ears perceived the vocals and music as rather disconnected. Like it's almost slapped or ducktaped together, without really getting into one, organic unison.

 

Idk, maybe that's a new sonic-experience experiminvented back at the studio, maybe it's a matter of kbps?

 

Or maybe because Lana was just being Lana, which reminds me that one of the first thing I/my ears noticed, which(fairly enough) irked me when I first found her, was how much I want the vocal of Born To Die be uptempo-ed by slightly 1/2 or even 1/4 to match the music's--Born To Die - Woodkid Remix saved the day and grabbed a hold of me.

 

Don't even asked what happened when I first listened to the NA Nexus. #semi-confession

 

 

[Coney Island King 26,002]

Are you in Australia? Follow-up: Are you prepared to be harassed by the entire board if it's released there and doesn't leak before its release?

 

I am ready for it, yes

[Coney Island King 26,002]

 

 

I don't understand why people equate being submissive with being anti-feminist. It doesn't make any sense. No, I don't need someone to explain how people make the connection, I understand it and I'm pointing out that it's stupid. Those lyrics are not anti feminist.

 

Agreed.

[Sitar 22,210]

Exactly.

 

 

 

You're right, but it really, really irks me. I just don't think like that. If it hurts me, it hurts me as a person, not as a woman. I am more than my looks, and I don't owe it to anyone to be attractive.

 

Still, continuing the cycle of this thinking is not doing women any favours. She's not setting back the progression of feminist thinking because it already seems to have stagnated here (public thought), nor is she helping by contributing to this oppressive thinking. I just don't like when people keep perpetuating these "ideals", especially those in public eye. Speak for yourself Lana, because you sure as hell are not representing me as a woman. (Notice how I use the word woman and not girl?)

 

EDIT: I'm trying this new thing where I'm not an asshole on the forum and I calm down before I make a post. So I don't know if this is worded too harshly or anything; but bear with me, I'm trying! :3

 

Anyway, it bothers me to see women fall in line with this horrible way of thinking, and it bothers me to women themselves perpetuating this bullshit. It bothers me when I see myself thinking this way and I have to stop and correct myself. As Sitar mentioned, society is much harsher on women and these ideas are deeply ingrained in us from an incredibly young age. Even the most headstrong, independent, intelligent women might grapple with these issues. Yes, society, the media, family conditions us to think this way. Yes, there are a multitude of layers and years of this incredibly complex issue: the sociological context, historical context, even evolutionary context -- but I am a firm believer in the individual. And call me naive or too optimistic, but I think real social change can be made. To me, it's never just "Oh, just one person said that; everyone thinks it anyway" -- it starts with the individual. We make up society.

 

I'm not going to give Lana a free pass on this one. :imbeingsarcasticbitch2: Maybe she's changed, I don't know. I know I have, and I know it's possible. I'm still learning, and I'm still changing. And I also know that my daughters and my sons (if I even have children) will be taught not to perpetuate this bullshit and will not be cast into gender roles and taught to have "gender-appropriate" qualities.

 

....and I went a little overboard. Again.

 

Ooops. (._. )

 

But you can admit it's possibly not something she's learned, perhaps even something she said instinctively. It's a terrible way of thinking, but in my opinion she shouldn't be held accountable for it. Then you could argue that she has the option to educate herself, but what do you do if you yourself don't see any flaws in your own thinking and aren't faced that often with any social revolution on the matter? View all sides of every argument anyway? Nice in theory, but none of us do that. It's nice that you can recognize these thoughts and what problems they present in yourself, I mean it's really forward and powerful, but I don't think everyone can.

 

Summary: Anti-feminism is bad, and Lana is a victim at most and not an intentional perpetuator.

[lola 6,641]

I don't think being submissive is anti-feminist at all. I don't think Lana is a feminist nor is she an anti-feminist. She just does what she wants or was taught to do and that's apparently letting the man be the boss, look pretty and be horny all of the time.

 

I really don't think that "as a girl, that hurts" line is too bad. I'd be hurt too, if people would be saying I look plastic or ugly or whatnot. Girls are taught by everyone and everything (parents, friends, media etc.) that they have to be pretty to make it in life and to be accepted, boys aren't.

[Luda 167]

When the album is out, I'll write you an answer.

[PrettyBaby 2,219]

I can see I'm going to use up my "like" quota early today.

 

I don't see anything anti-feminist with Lana being submissive since it's her choice. And isn't that what counts? It's her choice.

 

That's key. (Of course, it's important for it to be a real choice, as opposed to a choice-to-fall-in-line-with-what-we-say-God-says-or-be-regarded-as-a-horrible-person sort of choice. But I'm not getting that vibe from Lana at all.)

 

If it hurts me, it hurts me as a person, not as a woman. I am more than my looks, and I don't owe it to anyone to be attractive.

 

Speak for yourself Lana, because you sure as hell are not representing me as a woman. (Notice how I use the word woman and not girl?)

Very true. But honestly my reaction is just, wow, that could have been worded better.

 

...but I am a firm believer in the individual. And call me naive or too optimistic, but I think real social change can be made. To me, it's never just "Oh, just one person said that; everyone thinks it anyway" -- it starts with the individual. We make up society.

 

I'm not going to give Lana a free pass on this one. :imbeingsarcasticbitch2: Maybe she's changed, I don't know. I know I have, and I know it's possible. I'm still learning, and I'm still changing. And I also know that my daughters and my sons (if I even have children) will be taught not to perpetuate this bullshit and will not be cast into gender roles and taught to have "gender-appropriate" qualities.

I love you, Maru! And I wholeheartedly agree -- I think we can make a difference in society. It's gonna get better. I can't promise, but... well, yeah. :hug:

[Guest Maru the Cat]

But you can admit it's possibly not something she's learned, perhaps even something she said instinctively. It's a terrible way of thinking, but in my opinion she shouldn't be held accountable for it. Then you could argue that she has the option to educate herself, but what do you do if you yourself don't see any flaws in your own thinking and aren't faced that often with any social revolution on the matter? View all sides of every argument anyway? Nice in theory, but none of us do that. It's nice that you can recognize these thoughts and what problems they present in yourself, I mean it's really forward and powerful, but I don't think everyone can.

 

Summary: Anti-feminism is bad, and Lana is a victim at most and not an intentional perpetuator.

 

If Lana said that in front of me, I'd explain to her that it isn't cool and why it isn't cool. And that's what people should do, educate each other. I've been ignorant about a lot of issues and I've had people kind enough take the time to explain to me about x and y. And maybe it hasn't clicked immediately, maybe it took me a while to fully grasp whatever idea but eventually, I got there. People have to be willing to plant these seeds. Unless you're living in a bubble, you will come across women that think differently/have these ideals... and this brings me to my next point:

 

I don't think it's that ~Lana should educate herself~, I think it's that women have a responsibility to attempt to correct this way of thinking in a non-confrontational, nonaggressive, non-self-righteous/preachy manner. Who's going to listen to the message when you're being an asshole or a condescending prick about it?

 

Women are only made to continue to be victims because we let this happen. There is no finality when if comes to this issue, but when people act like there is, there might as well be. :\

[Gangster Bitch 69]

I keep seeing this Lana's lyrics coming off as anti-feminist thing over and over on multiple platforms, and even though I get where it's coming from, I personally don't agree. You can't expect every celebrity out there to be a role model and write lyrics that suit your beliefs, and bitch about the second they write/say something that you don't agree with (I'm not talking about anyone here, don't get me wrong)

 

However, the whole "that as a girl hurts your feelings" line, I agree with. But, I think the issue goes deeper than that, it just happens to be that Lana is a woman, and women are more exposed to harsh criticism of the public eye and media. I think same sort of thing would hurt a guy as well, no one likes being called "ugly" or "unnatractive". I think that is the thing that has to change, people need to stop obsessing about looks so much. I don't see that happening in the near future, as sad as it is. I even find myself worrying about it. Some people will always be more obsessed with physical beauty, and I'm not saying that's wrong, but it needs to stop being a criteria for criticism, a criteria for judgement.

 

I hope I didn't come off rude or anything, it was never my intention.

[lola 6,641]

Also, Lana's looks have been heavily criticized, even more so than her music. Every time I see someone writing something negative about her, her looks are criticized which is fucking ridiculous. I can absolutely understand her being hurt by that. And I also understand the "as a girl" thing. Which guy would say "that as a guy hurts your feelings" when someone criticises his looks?

[Gangster Bitch 69]

Also, Lana's looks have been heavily criticized, even more so than her music. Every time I see someone writing something negative about her, her looks are criticized which is fucking ridiculous. I can absolutely understand her being hurt by that. And I also understand the "as a girl" thing. Which guy would say "that as a guy hurts your feelings" when someone criticises his looks?

 

I don't think a guy would voice that openly, because it would hurt his ~manliness~ (which is a whole other fucked up norm brought upon by society imo) but I don't think it would actually make anyone feel good ? Being unattractive is never a positive thing, and I think it just needs to stop. Like, why even mention if someone's had plastic surgery, when you're writing a review for their album....

[DaytonaMeth 428]

I love all of the songs so far, some more than others. But I'm just annoyed that she curses so much haha. It gets kind of excessive sometimes. Gods & Monsters was my fave based on the snippets, but when longer one was released and she was saying "I was an angel - looking to get fucked hard"....really wasn't what I was expecting.

[Harlem 1,942]

Now you agree to it!

 

I actually do want to enlist you. Closer to the release, though, probably.

 

Well I would have agreed to it earlier had anyone asked :imbeingsarcasticbitch2:

[TrailerParkDarling 5,692]

IDK I feel like I find fault with almost everything she does (lol), but I can't find it in my heart to find her antifem. I mean the GQ shoot itself I thought was pretty awful to women- but in a way, for her as an individual, it could have been very empowering- but that's a whole other story

 

also, I really am at war w/ loving paradise edition for the fun lyrics 2 sing or hating it b/c, for me at least- it doesn't hold a candle to btd and doesn't really ~paint a picture w/ words~ like it did for me ^_^

[Poison Ivy 1,588]

I think Lana simply doesn't adhere much to feminism, but I agree that is not anti-feminist in itself. The only sort of 'anti-feminist' song of hers I can think of is 'This Is What Makes Us Girls' and the quotes like the one Maru mentioned - I think she's sort of projecting her own feelings and attitudes as a girl into what all of us are supposed to be, which of course some women will disagree with because not all of us enjoy being told to "shut up, I got this". If it's right or wrong that Lana or other women like her think this way, it's not my place to tell - I think in a small dose it can be fun, especially when you're young and all, but it can turn much uglier.

 

However, coming back to anti-feminism, I think Lana just gets a bit carried away with her lyrics and art sometimes and starts saying stuff like [that quote], but I'm sure she is aware it's her own view and she just likes putting these feelings and attitudes in her songs. I think 'tumblr feminists' just have to face that not everyone has the same ideas and standards like them. In a perfect world, everything would be politically correct and it's good to try to 'educate' on this subject, just without imposing their perspective when they don't understand where women like Lana come from.

[Hundred Dollar Bill 21,804]

Projecting again...

 

1. Cola

2. American

2. Gods and Monsters (really can't choose, these are ones I'll definitely need in full to determine)

3. Ride

4. Body Electric

5. Burning Desire

6. Bel Air

7. Blue Velvet (already seems old, doesn't it?)

8. Yayo

 

Luckily everything's impressing me but Yayo...I'll just stay over here with the other three versions we have...

 

My list has definitely changed since the new snippets.

 

1. Gods & Monsters (This one just seems so powerful and emotional, lyrically and.. sonically. )

2. American

3. Bel Air (This one sounds great, but only from the first snippet. I think it'll do what Cola will when I get the full; blow me away. Also, does anyone else hear children in the background? )

4. Body Electric

4. Yayo (I know it'll grow on me, but she fucking butchered the chorus.. )

4. Cola (I really want to love this one but the chorus is so boring... I feel like the full version will have me though. The pre-chorus is amazing and I love the use of the strings there. )

 

I'm not including Ride or Burning Desire because they've already been released, and it'll be too hard to place them in this list since I haven't heard all of the others yet. (Blue Velvet who?)

 

I know it's "fucked hard" in Gods & Monsters, but did anyone else hear "looking to get fucktard" the first time? Maybe this song isn't about sex, but it's about Lana being strung out on dope, in a magical land of Gods & Monsters..

[Hello Heaven 1,578]

I refuse to make up my mind about this album before I listen to the full songs. And I won't listen to these snippents either, they kinda ruin the surprise, hahha.

I know, I made the mistake of getting over-excited and listening to all the snippets but I really wish I hadn't.

[lola 6,641]

Am I the only one that hasn't listened to the 1:30 snippets?