Israel-Palestine conflict (Israel-Hamas war)

[Veinsineon 70,601]

@I Come In Peace I’m sorry but you being a former IDF soldier and coming in here talking about how most of the women and children in Israeli prisons are terrorists is just leaving such a shitty taste in my mouth. Like. Do you not hear yourself? The mental gymnastics are insane. I applaud you for protesting the far right wing sector of your government… but even those on the centrist side have displayed what we all know to be true about israeli nationalism. It’s a virus that has been around for 80 years. From the river to the sea is not about the erasure of Israel. I know it’s hard to find media and books that aren’t state approved in your region, but I implore you to do some more research rather than utilize fear of uncertainty to attempt to destabilize support for Palestine. Of course you think that’s what the saying means though, that’s what you were raised to anyways.

4 minutes ago, Ultra Violet said:

I wonder if the conflict and attacks in the West Bank are going to stop with the temporary ceasefire. My guess is no.

they are actively arming settlers as we speak !

[Ultra Violet 18,426]

22 minutes ago, I Come In Peace said:

Seeing a lot of privileged Europeans and Americans talking s*** and judging my country (and Jews), thinking that they know every single thing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is WILD.

While a lot of you read their news straight from influencers' instagram stories or from TikTok, yet I'm the one living here, in this situation, for 20+ years.

 

Let's clear some misconceptions/ignorant things I've read here:

• Most Jews in Israel aren't white - a lot of us are Middle Eastern (including myself), so we literally got nowhere to go (my ancestors' countries ethnically cleansed all the Jewish people living there).
• Most Israelis want PEACE and believed in the two states solution (unfortunately some stopped believing in it since October 7th), and don't agree with our goverment's actions (I personally protested against the government several times the past year)
• Israel don't have any official responsibility for giving aid to Palestine (yet we've been doing that)
• Some of you seem to forget/ignore - HAMAS IS A TERRORIST GROUP, WHO MURDER THEIR OWN PEOPLE! on October 7th, they k*lled Muslim Bedouins as well!
• about the quote "Cease fire in Gaza" - every single time that there is a ceasefire between Israel and Palestine, Hamas is the one that breaks it, exactly like they did with the terrible massacre on October 7th
• The quote "From the river to the sea" = the erasure of Israel & the Jewish people living here (again, most of us don't have second citizenships, we literally got nowhere else to live in)
• Palestine got free in 2005 "In 2005, Israelis of the Gush Katif Israeli settlements were evacuated as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan, and all Israeli restrictions on internal movements ceased". Unfortunately Hamas got elected in 2007...
• About some comments of IDF soldiers on videos - as a former IDF soldier myself, I'd NEVER support hurting of innocent civilians! Most Israelis don't! (except crazy right-winged people)
• The Palestinians that are in Israelis prisons right now - are terrorists who tried to commit murders/bombings. Israel don't imprison innocent civilians, just like any other country don't.

One last thing - the word "Zionist" is being used as a slur in the past month, and it's 

Zionism = the belief that Jews needs a country. after the rise of antisemitism we're seeing going on in the world, proofs why we need a country.

 

I want to thank you if you took the time to read my comment. I still have hope we'll be able to live alongside Palestine peacefully.

May Palestine be free from Hamas, and we'll be free from Netanyahu.

I read this, and I hear you. I want to respectfully say I keep trying to specify that I am criticising Israeli officials and people from israel who are mocking the pain and suffering and death of Palestinians, and also those ignoring the suffering. We are allowed to criticise a countries government and that doest equal antisemitism. I hope Israel will be free from Netanyahu too. I'm also aware that there are people in Israel who are trying to fight back against him with the risk of being jailed, and many have been.

 

I also want to say (and maybe you didn't mean anyone in this thread at all), the "tik tok and influencer" news is really being thrown around to people as a defence to pro-Palestine talk. The alternative to the news you see on television and on your phone browser isn't automatically Tik tok and influencers. It can come straight from people in the UN (like the human rights expert who quit), and news channels that are closer to the conflict, and actually IN it like Al Jazeera who have been covering it for years.

[Ultra Violet 18,426]

@I Come In Peace sorry to bother you again, but maybe I can get your perspective on what's happening in the West Bank? How is Israel justifying that when Hamas doesn't control there?

[bluechemtrails 22,978]

@Veinsineon the slogan "from the river to the sea" is very disputed:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea

 

On November 11, 2023, the slogan was banned in Bavaria (Germany), and "the prosecutor's office and the Bavarian police warned that henceforth the use of this slogan, regardless of language, will be considered as the use of symbols of terrorist organizations. This may result in punishment of up to three years in prison or a fine."

[baddisease 15,888]

1 minute ago, bluechemtrails said:

@Veinsineon the slogan "from the river to the sea" is very disputed:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea

 

On November 11, 2023, the slogan was banned in Bavaria (Germany), and "the prosecutor's office and the Bavarian police warned that henceforth the use of this slogan, regardless of language, will be considered as the use of symbols of terrorist organizations. This may result in punishment of up to three years in prison or a fine."

 

Fuck Germany. They have no room to talk about what is a terrorist slogan or symbol. The current German state was built by Nazis from the start.

[Veinsineon 70,601]

7 minutes ago, bluechemtrails said:

@Veinsineon the slogan "from the river to the sea" is very disputed:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea

 

On November 11, 2023, the slogan was banned in Bavaria (Germany), and "the prosecutor's office and the Bavarian police warned that henceforth the use of this slogan, regardless of language, will be considered as the use of symbols of terrorist organizations. This may result in punishment of up to three years in prison or a fine."

Right…. I think I will trust the definition of someone from the region, over a German one but thank you!

[Rorman Nockwell 53,798]

2 hours ago, Barry said:

 

Thats what Israel want though, them all to leave. I doubt many of them would leave anyway as probably everyone there has had numerous maybe dozens of friends and family and neighbors and teachers and local people killed there, leaving to many people would probably be like giving up and they all died for nothing.

 

What really needs to happen is for Israel to stop trying to control them and let them exist as their own country.

Yes, I 100% agree - I just meant in the context of what's happening right now, people need to be able to leave if they want to.

But you're right - in the wider context, if people DO leave, Israel will likely claim Gaza like they've claimed the rest of Palestine. That appears to be the end goal and I feel like, for all the talk of not allowing that to happen, the international community will just uselessly waggle its finger when/if it does.

[Rorman Nockwell 53,798]

1 hour ago, I Come In Peace said:

Seeing a lot of privileged Europeans and Americans talking s*** and judging my country (and Jews), thinking that they know every single thing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is WILD.

While a lot of you read their news straight from influencers' instagram stories or from TikTok, yet I'm the one living here, in this situation, for 20+ years.

 

Let's clear some misconceptions/ignorant things I've read here:

• Most Jews in Israel aren't white - a lot of us are Middle Eastern (including myself), so we literally got nowhere to go (my ancestors' countries ethnically cleansed all the Jewish people living there).
• Most Israelis want PEACE and believed in the two states solution (unfortunately some stopped believing in it since October 7th), and don't agree with our goverment's actions (I personally protested against the government several times the past year)
• Israel don't have any official responsibility for giving aid to Palestine (yet we've been doing that)
• Some of you seem to forget/ignore - HAMAS IS A TERRORIST GROUP, WHO MURDER THEIR OWN PEOPLE! on October 7th, they k*lled Muslim Bedouins as well!
• about the quote "Cease fire in Gaza" - every single time that there is a ceasefire between Israel and Palestine, Hamas is the one that breaks it, exactly like they did with the terrible massacre on October 7th
• The quote "From the river to the sea" = the erasure of Israel & the Jewish people living here (again, most of us don't have second citizenships, we literally got nowhere else to live in)
• Palestine got free in 2005 "In 2005, Israelis of the Gush Katif Israeli settlements were evacuated as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan, and all Israeli restrictions on internal movements ceased". Unfortunately Hamas got elected in 2007...
• About some comments of IDF soldiers on videos - as a former IDF soldier myself, I'd NEVER support hurting of innocent civilians! Most Israelis don't! (except crazy right-winged people)
• The Palestinians that are in Israelis prisons right now - are terrorists who tried to commit murders/bombings. Israel don't imprison innocent civilians, just like any other country don't.

One last thing - the word "Zionist" is being used as a slur in the past month, and it's 

Zionism = the belief that Jews needs a country. after the rise of antisemitism we're seeing going on in the world, proofs why we need a country.

 

I want to thank you if you took the time to read my comment. I still have hope we'll be able to live alongside Palestine peacefully.

May Palestine be free from Hamas, and we'll be free from Netanyahu.

I just wanted to say: thank you for contributing to the thread. Most people in your position would be hesitant to, given the nature of the discussion, so I really appreciate that you did.

Other than that, my thoughts pretty much echo what @Ultra Violet said in her response to you. I think the "leaders" on both sides of this conflict have let their people down miserably.

[fl0r1dakil0s 20,677]

5 hours ago, Veinsineon said:

From the river to the sea is not about the erasure of Israel.

But doesn't "from the river to the sea" imply that the entire chunk of land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (the vast majority of which is now Israel) should be Palestinian territory? If so, it is clearly calling for the erasure (or massive upheaval that would undermine the very values it was founded on - values that explain Israel as a safe haven for the Jewish people) of Israel

[Ultra Violet 18,426]

56 minutes ago, fl0r1dakil0s said:

But doesn't "from the river to the sea" imply that the entire chunk of land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (the vast majority of which is now Israel) should be Palestinian territory? If so, it is clearly calling for the erasure (or massive upheaval that would undermine the very values it was founded on - values that explain Israel as a safe haven for the Jewish people) of Israel

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is not calling for genocide or wiping out Jewish people in Israel.

Meanwhile, people can tweet "From the river to the sea, Israel is what you'll see" and no one blinks an eye.

It seems its easy to think that freedom requires colonisation when coming from someone living in a country that did exactly that. Meanwhile Indigenous people just want freedom and others be like "!!!! this requires my destruction!!!!". No It Doesn't. Learn the difference between freedom from oppression and what colonisation really is.

[baddisease 15,888]

Idea: a singular, socialist, secular, free, multiethnic Palestine.

[fl0r1dakil0s 20,677]

1 hour ago, baddisease said:

Idea: a singular, socialist, secular, free, multiethnic Palestine.

That would defeat the entire purpose of the creation of Israel which was to create a safe haven for Jews after the horrors of the Holocaust and a decade(s) of persecution in Europe.. The existence of a Jewish state ensures that Jews (a mere 0.2% of people) will have a place to go if something like the Holocaust were to ever happen again

 

1 hour ago, Ultra Violet said:

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is not calling for genocide or wiping out Jewish people in Israel

No, but it is calling for the elimination of the only Jewish state

[Ultra Violet 18,426]

3 minutes ago, fl0r1dakil0s said:

No, but it is calling for the elimination of the only Jewish state

And "From the river to the sea, Israel is what you'll see" is not calling for the elimination of Palestinians as a group of people on their homeland?

 

[fl0r1dakil0s 20,677]

8 minutes ago, Ultra Violet said:

And "From the river to the sea, Israel is what you'll see" is not calling for the elimination of Palestinians as a group of people on their homeland?

 

It is! I wouldn't say either of those phrases

[Ultra Violet 18,426]

43 minutes ago, fl0r1dakil0s said:

It is! I wouldn't say either of those phrases

Okay. I just want to add, have you considered that freedom for Palestinians means to remove blockades, remove restrictions for the amount of food allowed into Gaza (like for years pre Oct 7th), remove their travel restrictions between the West Bank and Gaza, and that maybe their people shouldn't be restricted to only the two geographically divided locations within their homeland?

[fl0r1dakil0s 20,677]

3 minutes ago, Ultra Violet said:

Okay. I just want to add, have you considered that freedom for Palestinians means to remove blockades, remove restrictions for the amount of food allowed into Gaza (like for years pre Oct 7th), remove their travel restrictions between the West Bank and Gaza, and that maybe their people shouldn't be restricted to only the two geographically divided locations within the land that they owned and occupied first?

I'm going to disregard the "owned and occupied first" comment because it would take ten pages to just begin to argue about all the points that can be raised regarding the history of that land 

 

Regarding everything else you said, absolutely. And before the October 7th attacks I would've been right there with you advocating for those things. But unfortunately, Hamas hugely complicated things for the Palestinians when they did what they did on October 7th. It will now unfortunately take a while for Israel to clear out Hamas infrastructure and allow for fuel etc to safely enter Gaza and end up in the arms of Palestinians (not terrorists) - Regarding food, I agree that what's going on is tragic

[Ultra Violet 18,426]

56 minutes ago, fl0r1dakil0s said:

I'm going to disregard the "owned and occupied first" comment because it would take ten pages to just begin to argue about all the points that can be raised regarding the history of that land 

 

Regarding everything else you said, absolutely. And before the October 7th attacks I would've been right there with you advocating for those things. But unfortunately, Hamas hugely complicated things for the Palestinians when they did what they did on October 7th. It will now unfortunately take a while for Israel to clear out Hamas infrastructure and allow for fuel etc to safely enter Gaza and end up in the arms of Palestinians (not terrorists) - Regarding food, I agree that what's going on is tragic

Fair enough about the first part. I'll edit it to what I should have said.

Generally, Palestinians being controlled by a government thats comitted terrorism (and still is) doesnt stop me from wanting their freedom and basic human rights at every moment. I also don't agree with collective punishment by Israel in the meantime, and rather than just a tragedy, I think the killing was entirely preventable, had there been communication before the bombing began.

[barttttender 3,080]

19 hours ago, fl0r1dakil0s said:

Holocaust comparisons continue to remain absurd..

 

Israel deserves those comparisons. Periodt.

[barttttender 3,080]

41 minutes ago, fl0r1dakil0s said:

I'm going to disregard the "owned and occupied first" comment because it would take ten pages to just begin to argue about all the points that can be raised regarding the history of that land 

 

Regarding everything else you said, absolutely. And before the October 7th attacks I would've been right there with you advocating for those things. But unfortunately, Hamas hugely complicated things for the Palestinians when they did what they did on October 7th. It will now unfortunately take a while for Israel to clear out Hamas infrastructure and allow for fuel etc to safely enter Gaza and end up in the arms of Palestinians (not terrorists) - Regarding food, I agree that what's going on is tragic

 

 

Ummmmm. Israel alloweed Hamas to do what they did on 7th Oct. Just think - all those Israeli armies there (the richest army in the world, by all accounts, that also possesses nuclear weapons, apparently) - and they're nowhere in sight on that day? Where were they? Taking a little break?

 

Israel wanted this to happen, the concert-goers were like lamb to the slaughter. And why? So they could keep doing what they're doing right now under the pretense of "hunting for Hamas".

 

But like Elon Musk said, what they didn't realize is that after all this the whole world would be against-Israel and the Muslim community would rally the world over. That's exactly what happened.

 

Israel might have won the Palestinian territory, which they so desperately covet. But they've lost decades of tourism, for a start. Basically, 2023 was the year that Israel was fully exposed as a terrorist country.

[BartenderDeco 19,402]

FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA PALESTINE WILL BE FREE