Lana, Lorde, & Feminism

[Viva 3,170]

"Okay, let’s talk about feminism. What’s your take on feminism?

To be honest, I don’t really have one. I have a great appreciation for our world’s history. I learn from my own mistakes, I learn from the mistakes we’ve made as a human race. But I think we've gotten to a good place as women and we’ll just keep naturally progressing. That’s kind of how I feel about it. "

 

Lana doesn't really have an opinion about femnism, 

 

 

 

http://www.electronicbeats.net/en/features/interviews/lana-del-rey-interview/

 

I think her opinion is right there. What I understood is that she thinks about us as people not females or males specifically. Her thoughts are towards evolving (or not tbh) as humans. Our history was made by mans and womens.

[PrettyBaby 2,220]

 

 

Feminism as a movement kind of has a dark history when it comes to glossing over women of color, lower class women, and trans women. For a long time it was a movement heralded by upper middle class white women for upper middle class white women, with women not fitting into those qualifications being ignored, thrown under the bus, or used as tokens. I think it's pretty understandable why someone would not want to relate to a movement that historically hasn't had your interests at heart despite claiming to speak for you. Feminism nowadays generally tries to acknowledge its past failings as a movement, but being that "woman" is necessarily a broad category it's hard to have one movement that speaks for all women and addresses the varying levels of oppression (class, race, trans, sexuality, disability, etc).

 

Feminism is as much the movement it is associated with as it is the ideals it espouses. If you want to associate yourself with feminism, you need to acknowledge that yes, there are skeletons in the closet and deal with them. You can also agree with the ideals without adopting the label. Does believing people shouldn't live in equality mean one must identify as a socialist? Does believing people should have a chance to work hard and succeed mean one should call oneself a capitalist? You can't boil down complex political movements to a single-issue, especially not ideologies which purport to explain every facet of society (feminism has expanded a lot to issues most wouldn't associate with gender - environmentalism, distribution of wealth).

 

In addition, feminism is so broad that saying you're a feminist is quite unhelpful. Which subset of feminism are you? A lib fem is going to have different views than a rad fem. Is pornography good for the soul or inherently degrading to women? What is the true nature of the patriarchy? How can women take control of their own lives and do women have a responsibility to other women? These are all questions to which you'll get wildly different responses - all from people who identify as "feminist."

 

That's something that really bothers me about female artists (actually any artist, but lesser known female artists like to talk about feminism a lot) talking about feminism - their analysis is superficial and seems to come from like the Sparknotes version of second-wave feminism. It's a lazy way to make your songs seem like intellectual critiques of society without actually having the content to back it up. Grrl power! Don't ever be dependent on a man, ever! Implying, of course, that the roles traditionally assigned to women are lesser and that women who "play" into them are less intelligent... which sounds a lot like internalized misogyny to me. Marina and the Diamonds's "Girls" is a grade-A example of a "feminist" song that is actually super misogynistic (thankfully she's realized the unfortunate implications of the song). You'll still hear people proclaiming that lyrics like "look like a girl but I think like a guy!" are scathing deconstructions of gender when they actually reinforce this idea that there's a way to look like and think like a guy/girl. Not to mention the entire idea that instead of criticizing the institutions that "fuel a new insecurity" for women, we criticize women for... being influenced by the media.

 

Disclaimer: I don't study politics, women's studies, or gender theory. Most of what I know regarding feminism as a movement today comes from my frequenting self-proclaimed feminist circles which, though harmful in other ways, opened my eyes to the superficial and ultimately harmful nature of my own "brand" of feminism. I think there are a lot of women like me who grow up dissatisfied with gender roles and the way women are treated, but instead take it out on other women who are content with this system and imply that these women are the ones keeping them down, which is not necessarily true and demeans a woman's choice just for fitting into gender-conforming lines. Seeing this attitude being perpetuated reminds me of my old, harmful attitude and it upsets me because a) it reminds me of how terrible my grasp of politics was at a young age (not that it's much better now, but it was worse then) and b) it's actually not really helpful to women and might even be harmful.

 

 

 

This, this, a thousand times this 

 

I'm still trying to decide if Lorde's "Royals" fails the Bechdel test:

 

The Bechdel test (/ˈbɛkdəl/ bek-dəl) asks whether a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man.

 

Maybe it's not fair to hold a music video to the same standard as a feature-length film (but I figure if a Minnie Mouse short can meet it in four minutes, surely it's not asking too much). Maybe music videos need a modified test: Feature at least two women who interact with each other in a way that is not completely, obviously, only about a man.

 

Royals: Average guy + average guy buddies + female narrator who "gets it" = FAIL

 

But does it fail? Does it matter whether the song is inspired by Lana Del Rey's "National Anthem," in which case the video might be seen as a dialogue between Lorde and LDR? Or is it enough that we can presume the female narrator addresses "everybody"?

 

Bottom line for me: include an average girl/woman and then I'll be able to feel like somebody "gets" something, tbh.

[lola 6,643]

I'm still trying to decide if Lorde's "Royals" fails the Bechdel test:

 

 

Maybe it's not fair to hold a music video to the same standard as a feature-length film (but I figure if a Minnie Mouse short can meet it in four minutes, surely it's not asking too much). Maybe music videos need a modified test: Feature at least two women who interact with each other in a way that is not completely, obviously, only about a man.

 

Royals: Average guy + average guy buddies + female narrator who "gets it" = FAIL

 

But does it fail? Does it matter whether the song is inspired by Lana Del Rey's "National Anthem," in which case the video might be seen as a dialogue between Lorde and LDR? Or is it enough that we can presume the female narrator addresses "everybody"?

 

Bottom line for me: include an average girl/woman and then I'll be able to feel like somebody "gets" something, tbh.

I don't think you can really apply the Bechdel test to music videos. I mean, lots of videos just consist of a woman standing/sitting/lying somewhere and singing. I actually liked the Royals video, the song isn't my thing but the video is definitely something different compared to other videos of women completely over-sexualizing and objectifying themselves and it says something.

 

 

Btw, I don't get how some people on here can just hate Lorde for that quote. I don't know anything about her and I've only heard Royals but I'm glad she at least has some view on feminism (and it may not be fully developed yet but she's definitely headed in the right direction imo) unlike the majority of other girls her (aka my) age.

[PrettyBaby 2,220]

I don't think you can really apply the Bechdel test to music videos. I mean, lots of videos just consist of a woman standing/sitting/lying somewhere and singing. I actually liked the Royals video, the song isn't my thing but the video is definitely something different compared to other videos of women completely over-sexualizing and objectifying themselves and it says something.

 

 

Btw, I don't get how some people on here can just hate Lorde for that quote. I don't know anything about her and I've only heard Royals but I'm glad she at least has some view on feminism (and it may not be fully developed yet but she's definitely headed in the right direction imo) unlike the majority of other girls her (aka my) age.

 

Yeah, the Bechdel test isn't a perfect test. It's just sort of interesting how embarassingly simple it is to meet it, and yet how embarassingly rare it is that it gets met.

 

Obviously the Royals video has a lot going for it, and it's a strong message from a female perspective. It's not so much a problem that this particular video focuses on male characters; it's just one small part of a culture that still tends to think in terms of:

 

male = normal human 

female = deviation from the norm

 

In Royals, a beautiful female celebrates average males living their lives. Where are the average women? As in much of pop culture, they are once again absent/invisible. None of this makes Lorde or her music video director guilty of deliberate sexism. It's just interesting what artistic choices we make (and accept) as a culture to represent humanity.

[IamThatGirlLily 533]

That little Lorde thinks she knows what she's talking about but she doesn't. She's 16 and likes to think she's mature and aware of grown-up world.

Being a feminist doesn't mean you shoving your female-right-oriented request to everyone throat. To me being a feminist is to be confident, to live the life you want, and to have the same rights as the men.

 

What kind of image does she thinks she has on young girls? Everytime I see a teenage girl/boy becoming famous I cringe. The main message they leave to young kids is that's OK to leave school and becoming an entertainer. Call me old-fashioned but I think it's not.

[Divisive Princess 3,755]

I'm kind of a fan of Lorde, but I think she needs to stfu. She's a 16 yr old girl that sings about the same thing in every song so I don't think she has a place in judging Lana's lyrics.

Lana writes abouts her experiences and so does Lorde and Lorde should respect that.

[Sitar 22,218]

"I don't like Lorde she's 16 did you know that she's 16" - everyone

[Iggy Azalea 19]

this is the same chick that supports Nicki's music

 

shit like "playing with my pussy, i was just that bored" aren't suppose to be in little girls ears

[Deleted User 1,353]

I actually think that Lorde is sassy, and unlike every other person in the world, being 16, she's got something to say. Everyone's judging her upon her age, while you're all spitting out unconvincing bullshit, with no sustain whatsoever, while the girl is really doing it right.

 

I think her bravery exceeds the regularity. She just gets out there and speaks out. I have never read or listened to her with the idea she's putting out hate. She's just speaking her mind. And I actually think she does it with proper etiquette. 

 

I think we're actually looking at a fine artist that we hadn't had the chance in years to receive.

 

I do believe that chauvinism is born from women. And feminism is just an mirror-inversed form of reaction to it. Chauvinism exists since the gender differenciation. There's people who get used to it, and people who try to go against it. But every form of gender differencialization is stupid and medieval.

[whitman 1,286]

this is the same chick that supports Nicki's music

 

shit like "playing with my pussy, i was just that bored" aren't suppose to be in little girls ears

 

She likes Nicki Minaj? Seriously? LOL 

[Valentino 885]

"I don't like Lorde she's 16 did you know that she's 16" - everyone

 

Her perspective on feminism is neither profound nor novel and this can probably be attributed to her being 16, the age during which most people do not spend their whole day reading bell hooks or Gloria Steinem in addition to being an age where one has relatively little personal experience of one's own to add to a global conversation. This doesn't mean one should say "she's 16, so I'll ignore her views," but it does mean one can safely say "her views are not particularly well developed and this can be attributed to her age."

 

I, personally, do not disparage her for being 16 - I see it as a causative factor of the relative superficiality of her views. There are very few people her age who can stand their own in a political conversation; more politically minded peers tend to be better educated on their subject of choice to make up for their inexperience. I know my views at 16 were, in retrospect, quite embarrassing (and in a few years I'll probably find something about my current views to be embarrassed about as well) and lacking nuance.

[rways 405]

I think about lana re: feminism a lot tbh and I had a revelation recently. While lana definitely portrays a relationship in which she is submissive, or at least a woman who prefers to be dominated, I feel like there's a real sex positive message in her songs that's kind of lacking in pop music as a whole.

 

Obviously sex is not an untouched topic in music, by male or female artists. Something I have noticed from female singers in particular is that sex is almost always sung about with love. The two seem to appear mutually exclusive, you know? Like, you cannot possibly have sex without being in love with the person you had sex with. It's also often referred to as "love making" which has always struck me as the kind of euphemism you would use in front of your parents. It makes sex seem so dirty and inappropriate. This is where I think lana differs slightly. She fucks for love but she also fucks for pleasure. She fucks because she wants it and she fucks for this grand opulent persona she's built around herself. She does not let this make her a whore or reduce her femininity in any way and tbh I think that's pretty cool~

That's a perfect post

[Viva 3,170]

 ROAR by KP, which is  a stupid, wannabe "feminist" anthem, which is sterile because has nothing to do with reality, is rather a pop reconstruction of some feminist point of view. This is what i call inauthentic, fabricated music. (Woman ROAR, what a "grand" image for a woman). Poor Lana was called inauthentic and crucified for expressing her feelings.

 

while I do agree that Roar is a pop fabirctaed music I think you missed the point

Who has a Roar? A lion

Who is the KING of the jungle? A lion

 

Beyonce wants to be king maybe KP also wants. She just chose a cartoonish way to show she is the king of the jungle

[lola 6,643]

while I do agree that Roar is a pop fabirctaed music I think you missed the point

Who has a Roar? A lion

Who is the KING of the jungle? A lion

 

Beyonce wants to be king maybe KP also wants. She just chose a cartoonish way to show she is the king of the jungle

nah, i think roar rly is about being a strong woman. russell brand supposedly divorced her bc he didn't like her being in control and he never/barely ever visited her on tour because he didn't like that she was the one in charge there.

 

I used to bite my tongue and hold my breath

Scared to rock the boat and make a mess

So I sat quietly, agreed politely

I guess that I forgot I had a choice

I let you push me past the breaking point

I stood for nothing, so I fell for everything

 

this is about her relationship w russell, not about the music industry

[Viva 3,170]

nah, i think roar rly is about being a strong woman. russell brand supposedly divorced her bc he didn't like her being in control and he never/barely ever visited her on tour because he didn't like that she was the one in charge there.

 

I used to bite my tongue and hold my breath

Scared to rock the boat and make a mess

So I sat quietly, agreed politely

I guess that I forgot I had a choice

I let you push me past the breaking point

I stood for nothing, so I fell for everything

 

this is about her relationship w russell, not about the music industry

 

  when did I say Roar was about the music industry??

 

Anyway it's obviously about Russel. Roar / Lion / Jungle is obviously a metaphor about being a strong women. The king of the Jungle. Knock her down she gets up again.

[Valentino 885]

Wow, this thread still exists? It feels so old.

 

Just wanted to take the opportunity to mention that a lot of people seem to think that Lorde lives in the ghetto or something like that (her talk of white teeth teens, "we count our dollars on the train," a torn-up town, etc.) when I've heard a couple of New Zealanders saying she actually lives in a pretty comfortable suburb. Not that living in the suburbs is bad (I live in the suburbs  ) but it's ironic that she's talking about the unobtainable opulence of Gray Goose and diamond watches while her biggest monetary problem is that her parents didn't give her enough money for the cab (or that she didn't spend it properly and now has too little left?)... I know she's commenting on American hip-hop culture from a New Zealander's point of view, but it's just sort of cosmically ironic that for some people, the lifestyle she lives (and by extension the lifestyle I live) would qualify as unobtainably opulent. Once again, not a bad thing. I don't think it's her responsibility to speak for the impoverished, especially if she's never experienced that. It's good she speaks from her experience as opposed to trying to represent all the peoples in the world.

 

I've kind of grown to like her music since Pure Heroine was released, so looking back at some of my earlier responses, I feel like I was a bit more judgmental and critical than was necessary. I still find her fanbase to be rather... obnoxious, let's say, particularly how they idolize her as some sort of prodigy wunderkind child genius and, in one instance, couldn't even take a stupid joke that made a pun on "queen Bey" and "queen bee." I guess that's why I still feel very hesitant when talking about her, because I feel like so many of her fans are those type of Tumblr teens who think they're very hip because they use Tumblr instead of Facebook, and I don't want to be a part of the communal gazing. I don't like idolizing people because that usually ends up being dehumanizing (it may sound ironic, but when you turn someone into a god, you are denying them the ability to make mistakes and need others) besides rarely bringing anything of worth concerning their achievements and person.

 

As for Katy Perry... I've actually found her to be an enigma (enigma pop star is fun, she wear Hershey bra for fashion). The fact that she's so reliant on her co-writers and producers makes it hard to discern her actual voice, if it shows up in her music at all. We know she's been a writer and musician - her Christian debut shows this. To what extent has this influenced her Perry music from OOTB to TD(CC) to PRISM? I have no idea. It's bizarre. Perhaps that's why her music is so appealing - it's something that many people can identify with without having to change little words of the song. Even if you've never driven with a lover to Cali, you don't want to throw that away because it encapsulates your feelings. This sort of "generic" approach makes it hard to tell who wrote it because it lacks identifying markers. Bonnie McKee had a huge hand in writing Teenage Dream (reportedly the imagery in the verses and the melody + lyrics for the chorus), but just how much? Did Katy play any role in writing the song? What about the other co-writers? Katy was supposedly the one who started writing Part of Me, but then McKee took over. Another source said Dr. Luke made them start over. It's all strange. As such, I can't comment on Roar.

[littleprettier 1]

I am new to LanaBoards. I was just wondering, what are your opinions on the whole Lorde's view on Lana Del Rey? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She said - 

She added: “She’s great, but I listened to that Lana Del Rey record and the whole time I was just thinking it’s so unhealthy for young girls to be listening to, you know: “I’m nothing without you.” This sort of shirt-tugging, desperate, don’t leave me stuff.

“That’s not a good thing for young girls, even young people, to hear."

"What really got me is this ridiculous, unrelatable, unattainable opulence that runs throughout. Lana Del Rey is always singing about being in the Hamptons or driving her Bugatti Veyron or whatever, and at the time, me and my friends were at some house party worrying how to get home because we couldn’t afford a cab."

 

I've also heard she listening to Video Games and other Lana tracks 

She was listening to a lot of rap and hip-hop-influenced music, especially Lana Del Rey, while writing. Lorde has mentioned that "all those references to expensive alcohol, beautiful clothes and beautiful cars – I was thinking, ‘This is so opulent, but it’s also bullshit.’"

 

But then I feel like I read somewhere else she was really inspired by Lana's writing..

 

 

I discovered Lana and Lorde the same way, as little videos on the side of a YouTube page, both posting tracks independently with a few thousand views.

 

I find them both so similar. I feel like Lana writes just like Lorde did in Royals, mocking the glamour. I feel like all of them are mocking the glamour (Drake + Minaj). 

I just was surprise she took such a piercing bark at the music her generation listens to. Don't get me wrong, opinions are what I appreciate, and that realness.

I just thought it came across a little hypocritical. Lana is "selling sex" not in a superficial give me money to harm your children, she is a lyricist. She is a true artist. Considering all mediums. I feel like Lorde is too.

 

 

I love Lorde's music, my favorite tracks are

Buzzcut Season

Love Club

400 Lux

Ribs

Still Sane

A World Alone

etc etc etc

 

I love it all.

Just curious on how you guys felt when hearing about this.

 

 

 

xxo

[Sitar 22,218]

@@littleprettier I merged this with an existing thread on the two~

[littleprettier 1]

@@SitarHero thank you!

[Jazzmin 302]

The "she affects teenage girls" part is a bullshit, sorry. Lana's creatures aren't meant to be "apropriate" - they are meant to be good and beautiful. The character from her songs is a human being, with human feelings and weaknesses. None of them makes her anti-feminist. Loving somebody else isn't anti-feminism.