Russia’s invasion into Ukraine

[Get Drunk 17,480]

Okay so I don't want this to be interpreted as me being pro-Putin, but Ukraine really should just.. accept defeat at this point? I don't see a reality where Ukraine rebuts Russia alone, and I don't see a scenario where any other country will step in without it becoming a major conflict. Ukraine's Government is, some believe, illegitimate (US-backed coup overthrowing elected Government, followed by the exclusion of states from participating in elections, followed by the assault on the states who protested against the coup),  Ukraine DOES have a problem with nazis (being one of two countries voting against the UN resolution to end the glorifcation of Nazism & Neo-nazism, which are two notable aspects of Ukrainian nationalism).

 

I don't think this justifies an invasion (although the fighting in Ukraine has taken hundreds of lives already, and the UN should have sanctioned Ukraine long ago) but Ukraine should NOT be stopping civilians trying to evacuate and sending them to fight. No civilian should be forced to fight for their Government, especially not an illegitimate one. I don't think it's fair to say "well, Russia's left them with no choice". Like, no? The Ukrainian Government is the one making the choice here, otherwise let the civilians decide for themselves whether they want to fight for their Western/US-backed Government.

 

Also, when the Ukrainian President (allegedly, I didn't see the direct quote) responded to the US offering to evacuate him with "I need ammunition, not a ride" that pissed me off. Like, yeah.. you're really the one who's going to be fighting on the streets against fully-geared Russian troops with nothing but a gun that was forced into your hands days after being pulled away from your family, who are terrified they'll never see you again. 

 

Controversial opinion and I'm struggling to articulate it but yeah.. The Ukrainian people shouldn't have to be suffering through this, but let's remember to not support Ukraine endlessly. Like, donate to the evacuating Ukrainians. Don't fucking donate to their Army lol..

[DownhillLullaby 4,842]

I accidentally just watched a video of a war tank passing through a car in movement.

 

That being said, I feel strange. This situation is really really messed up. 

During the last day, I avoided to watch the news & see what's being shared on-line.

But that doesn't mean that bad things are happening. 

I don't want to do this about me, but I feel lucky and at the same time SO SORRY, I can not measure it.

 

[Evergreen 7,597]

16 minutes ago, VioletBunny said:

Okay so I don't want this to be interpreted as me being pro-Putin, but Ukraine really should just.. accept defeat at this point? I don't see a reality where Ukraine rebuts Russia alone, and I don't see a scenario where any other country will step in without it becoming a major conflict. Ukraine's Government is, some believe, illegitimate (US-backed coup overthrowing elected Government, followed by the exclusion of states from participating in elections, followed by the assault on the states who protested against the coup),  Ukraine DOES have a problem with nazis (being one of two countries voting against the UN resolution to end the glorifcation of Nazism & Neo-nazism, which are two notable aspects of Ukrainian nationalism).

 

I don't think this justifies an invasion (although the fighting in Ukraine has taken hundreds of lives already, and the UN should have sanctioned Ukraine long ago) but Ukraine should NOT be stopping civilians trying to evacuate and sending them to fight. No civilian should be forced to fight for their Government, especially not an illegitimate one. I don't think it's fair to say "well, Russia's left them with no choice". Like, no? The Ukrainian Government is the one making the choice here, otherwise let the civilians decide for themselves whether they want to fight for their Western/US-backed Government.

 

Also, when the Ukrainian President (allegedly, I didn't see the direct quote) responded to the US offering to evacuate him with "I need ammunition, not a ride" that pissed me off. Like, yeah.. you're really the one who's going to be fighting on the streets against fully-geared Russian troops with nothing but a gun that was forced into your hands days after being pulled away from your family, who are terrified they'll never see you again. 

 

Controversial opinion and I'm struggling to articulate it but yeah.. The Ukrainian people shouldn't have to be suffering through this, but let's remember to not support Ukraine endlessly. Like, donate to the evacuating Ukrainians. Don't fucking donate to their Army lol..

Just fuck you, honestly, You don't know shit about Ukraine and Ukrainians, their governement is legitimate and their presdient is JEWISH, how it can be neo-nazi? The National Party of Ukraine did not even make it into parliament in the elections. Stop reading Russian propaganda. Ukrainians will continue to resist and fight for every city and scrap of land because they want to be free and not live under an authoritarian state, Putin or pro-Russian state. There are many videos on the net where Ukrainian citizens are trying to stop the Russian troops, they capture Russian soldiers and hand them over to the Ukrainian police. The Ukrainians will not surrender and they are not going to do it just so your ass could continue to sit peacefully in England.

There are huge queues at the military registration and people actively take up arms to defend their land. It's THEIR choice. Many Ukrainian kids and women now spending their days in bunkers.

[Evergreen 7,597]

Tell them to surrender.

[West Coast 44,806]

1 hour ago, BlueINK said:

On a more positive note: I'm slowly starting to feel like Europe and all partners are really getting the upper hand. 

I wonder if Putin is so insane that he genuinely doesn't realize he's already lost everything, or if he knows exactly he's shot himself in the foot but is too proud to admit it? 

I also see how people are still scared of a war but it's getting less somehow. The way Putin and his minions are simply getting roasted everytime they try to intimidate us again, by people all over the world directly under their posts. There's no respect anymore for these clowns and they aren't feared so much anymore, but rather looked down on. I love it.

I like the way you think, but I also think that those economic sanctions will most likely not last a while; a lot of these European countries are very dependent from Russia's energy sector, gas & oil mainly. I know for fact Germany gets roughly 60% of its gas from Russia. It will definitely be interesting to see how the situation evolves. 
 

Economic sanctions are definitely the way to go right now, NATO members know that Putin is just trying to push their buttons, it's kinda obvious that Putin wants a reason to nuke and display his military power. What a mad man.

[Get Drunk 17,480]

6 minutes ago, Writer In The Dark said:

Just fuck you, honestly, You don't know shit about Ukraine and Ukrainians, their governement is legitimate and their presdient is JEWISH, how it can be neo-nazi? The National Party of Ukraine did not even make it into parliament in the elections. Stop reading Russian propaganda. Ukrainians will continue to resist and fight for every city and scrap of land because they want to be free and not live under an authoritarian state, Putin or pro-Russian state. There are many videos on the net where Ukrainian citizens are trying to stop the Russian troops, they capture Russian soldiers and hand them over to the Ukrainian police. The Ukrainians will not surrender and they are not going to do it just so your ass could continue to sit peacefully in England.

There are huge queues at the military registration and people actively take up arms to defend their land. It's THEIR choice. Many Ukrainian kids and women now spending their days in bunkers.

I feel like I quite specifically talked about the people being taken away from their families while trying to evacuate? If the country needs to drag people away from the families, unwillingly, then surrender is better. No government should ever force civilians to fight. And no, Ukraine's latest elections literally didn't include a huge portion of the population that were protesting against the current Government's regime. I don't see that as legitimate.

[Evergreen 7,597]

1 minute ago, VioletBunny said:

I feel like I quite specifically talked about the people being taken away from their families while trying to evacuate? If the country needs to drag people away from the families, unwillingly, then surrender is better. No government should ever force civilians to fight. And no, Ukraine's latest elections literally didn't include a huge portion of the population that were protesting against the current Government's regime. I don't see that as legitimate.

No one cares what you see, tell me who was "protesting" against the current regime? Ukrainians protested against Yanukovych in 2013 and he left the country soon after that to RUSSIA. Ukrainians elected Zelensky and his party in 2019, 20 million (out of 39) people participated in the elections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election

[Dominikx4 25,025]

44 minutes ago, VioletBunny said:

Okay so I don't want this to be interpreted as me being pro-Putin, but Ukraine really should just.. accept defeat at this point? I don't see a reality where Ukraine rebuts Russia alone, and I don't see a scenario where any other country will step in without it becoming a major conflict. Ukraine's Government is, some believe, illegitimate (US-backed coup overthrowing elected Government, followed by the exclusion of states from participating in elections, followed by the assault on the states who protested against the coup),  Ukraine DOES have a problem with nazis (being one of two countries voting against the UN resolution to end the glorifcation of Nazism & Neo-nazism, which are two notable aspects of Ukrainian nationalism).

 

I don't think this justifies an invasion (although the fighting in Ukraine has taken hundreds of lives already, and the UN should have sanctioned Ukraine long ago) but Ukraine should NOT be stopping civilians trying to evacuate and sending them to fight. No civilian should be forced to fight for their Government, especially not an illegitimate one. I don't think it's fair to say "well, Russia's left them with no choice". Like, no? The Ukrainian Government is the one making the choice here, otherwise let the civilians decide for themselves whether they want to fight for their Western/US-backed Government.

 

Also, when the Ukrainian President (allegedly, I didn't see the direct quote) responded to the US offering to evacuate him with "I need ammunition, not a ride" that pissed me off. Like, yeah.. you're really the one who's going to be fighting on the streets against fully-geared Russian troops with nothing but a gun that was forced into your hands days after being pulled away from your family, who are terrified they'll never see you again. 

 

Controversial opinion and I'm struggling to articulate it but yeah.. The Ukrainian people shouldn't have to be suffering through this, but let's remember to not support Ukraine endlessly. Like, donate to the evacuating Ukrainians. Don't fucking donate to their Army lol..

this is so dumb and uninformed on so many levels but i really dont have the energy for this lmao

[Get Drunk 17,480]

Just now, Writer In The Dark said:

No one cares what you see, tell me who was "protesting" against the current regime? Ukrainians protested against Yanukovych in 2013 and he left the country soon after that to RUSSIA. Ukrainians elected Zelensky and his party in 2019, 20 million (out of 39) people participated in the elections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election

So by your own logic, more people voted for Yanukovych in 2013 and then more people were excluded in 2019. A 50% voter turnout in 2019 means less than 50% of the population voted for the winner in a popular vote system. That in itself can be considered illegitimate.

 

But even disregarding that fact, Ukraine overthrew an elected leader in 2014, then excluded the regions which had massive support for said leader from participating in elections. That is what makes it illegitimate personally. Like, millions of people not able to participate in the election, followed by a dip in voter turnout..

[Get Drunk 17,480]

10 minutes ago, Dominikx4 said:

this is so dumb and uninformed on so many levels but i really dont have the energy for this lmao

IDK, I didn't just tune into this a few weeks ago like most of y'all on this thread. 

 

Like, it's not black and white. At all. Ukraine and Russia can both have bad Governments, and personally I don't agree with donating to an Army who has spent the last few years launching assaults on its own people. 

[house of balloons 12,770]

1 hour ago, VioletBunny said:

Okay so I don't want this to be interpreted as me being pro-Putin, but Ukraine really should just.. accept defeat at this point? I don't see a reality where Ukraine rebuts Russia alone, and I don't see a scenario where any other country will step in without it becoming a major conflict. Ukraine's Government is, some believe, illegitimate (US-backed coup overthrowing elected Government, followed by the exclusion of states from participating in elections, followed by the assault on the states who protested against the coup),  Ukraine DOES have a problem with nazis (being one of two countries voting against the UN resolution to end the glorifcation of Nazism & Neo-nazism, which are two notable aspects of Ukrainian nationalism).

 

I don't think this justifies an invasion (although the fighting in Ukraine has taken hundreds of lives already, and the UN should have sanctioned Ukraine long ago) but Ukraine should NOT be stopping civilians trying to evacuate and sending them to fight. No civilian should be forced to fight for their Government, especially not an illegitimate one. I don't think it's fair to say "well, Russia's left them with no choice". Like, no? The Ukrainian Government is the one making the choice here, otherwise let the civilians decide for themselves whether they want to fight for their Western/US-backed Government.

 

Also, when the Ukrainian President (allegedly, I didn't see the direct quote) responded to the US offering to evacuate him with "I need ammunition, not a ride" that pissed me off. Like, yeah.. you're really the one who's going to be fighting on the streets against fully-geared Russian troops with nothing but a gun that was forced into your hands days after being pulled away from your family, who are terrified they'll never see you again. 

 

Controversial opinion and I'm struggling to articulate it but yeah.. The Ukrainian people shouldn't have to be suffering through this, but let's remember to not support Ukraine endlessly. Like, donate to the evacuating Ukrainians. Don't fucking donate to their Army lol..

you do realize that a surrender does not imply immediate peace and butterflies and rainbows and a happy ever after, right? 

[Get Drunk 17,480]

Just now, House of Balloons said:

you do realize that a surrender does not imply immediate peace and butterflies and rainbows and a happy ever after, right? 

Yes, thank you. But when Ukraine doesn't surrender and inevitably gets overrun by Russia, then what? The outcome is the same, but with a lot more deaths. 

[house of balloons 12,770]

2 minutes ago, VioletBunny said:

Yes, thank you. But when Ukraine doesn't surrender and inevitably gets overrun by Russia, then what? The outcome is the same, but with a lot more deaths. 

Russia is unlikely to hold control over the entirety of the Ukraine. The Russian army has been overestimated through propaganada and you can tell by their inability to actually penetrate Kiev even after days of arrival. And for the Ukraine, which is considered a mid-tier country at best, to even be able to take back control over Kherson through air force is enough evidence that it's not a completely lost battle. If the rest of the world excludes Russia from SWIFT, boycott their gas and oil, and sanction their oligarchs, it would be impossible for a crippled Russia with barely any strong alliances (even China's and Iran's are looking awkward) to further carry out the invasion. A surrender will be a loss of an entire country, while the most likely outcome if Ukraine continues to resist will be the loss of the eastern independentist border regions. + NATO has been dumping weapons at the Ukrainian army pretty much since its independence, so western pressure will not let a surrender see the light of day. 

[The Siren 29,112]

Just waking up and saw these

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/25/politics/nato-ukraine-russia/index.html

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/24/entertainment/sean-penn-ukraine-documentary-russia-cec/index.html

[Get Drunk 17,480]

23 minutes ago, House of Balloons said:

NATO has been dumping weapons at the Ukrainian army pretty much since its independence, so western pressure will not let a surrender see the light of day. 

This section of your post really emphasises how complex the situation is. 
 

The Cold War only ended 30 years ago. NATO’s pressure & influence on the countries so close to Russia isn’t an accident. Ukraine halted plans to join NATO in 2010, President Yanukovych saying he wanted to remain neutral. The US then backed a coup to overthrow Yanukovych . And once again, Ukraine showed interest in joining NATO. 

I do agree that a surrender isn’t realistic and isn’t expected but I’m just very, very against the Government forcing anyone to fight a war that’s essentially to service the West. 
 

editing to add, just in case anyone else yells at me again: I’m not saying anyone fighting by choice is bad at all. I’m not condemning anyone except the Government. 

[Evergreen 7,597]

1 hour ago, VioletBunny said:

So by your own logic, more people voted for Yanukovych in 2013, and then more people were excluded in 2019. A 50% voter turnout in 2019 means less than 50% of the population voted for the winner in a popular vote system. That in itself can be considered illegitimate.

 

But even disregarding that fact, Ukraine overthrew an elected leader in 2014, then excluded the regions which had massive support for said leader from participating in elections. That is what makes it illegitimate personally. Like, millions of people are not able to participate in the election, followed by a dip in voter turnout.

You're so stupid, just shut the fuck up and don't talk about something you don't know, it's damaging to so many Ukrainians.

 

Since 2013 Ukraine lost Crimea and Luhansk/Donetsk, so around 5.5 million people couldn't participate in the election because Ukraine didn't control those territories. Also part of these 39 million people are literally children under 18 and they CAN'T vote, so it's not 50%. Jesus... 

[house of balloons 12,770]

1 minute ago, VioletBunny said:

This section of your post really emphasises how complex the situation is. 
 

The Cold War only ended 30 years ago. NATO’s pressure & influence on the countries so close to Russia isn’t an accident. Ukraine halted plans to join NATO in 2010, President Yanukovych saying he wanted to remain neutral. The US then backed a coup to overthrow Yanukovych . And once again, Ukraine showed interest in joining NATO. 

I do agree that a surrender isn’t realistic and isn’t expected but I’m just very, very against the Government forcing anyone to fight a war that’s essentially to service the West. 

I understand where you're coming from. The west has been leading on Ukraine for the better part of the last decade, basically using them as the neo-iron-curtain separating them from big bad Russia, and now they basically threw them under the bus with how they've been pulling their punches in favor of their own economical interests. I could see why a surrender to spare blood is tempting, but as you said, it's too complex. 

[Get Drunk 17,480]

5 minutes ago, Writer In The Dark said:

You're so stupid, just shut the fuck up and don't talk about something you don't know, it's damaging to so many Ukrainians.

 

Since 2013 Ukraine lost Crimea and Luhansk/Donetsk, so around 5.5 million people couldn't participate in the election because Ukraine didn't control those territories. Also part of these 39 million people are literally children under 18 and they CAN'T vote, so it's not 50%. Jesus... 

why did they lose Luhansk/Donetsk? 4million people from that region lost.. why’s that? Oh yeah, it was because of the illegal coup that they were protesting against. That’s 4 million people that had mass support for the previous regime and were protesting against the new regime. 
 

what did the new regime do about that? Oh yeah, declare them terrorists and launch a multi year long assault on the region. 
 

 

[Blue Ink 5,897]

1 hour ago, West Coast said:

I like the way you think, but I also think that those economic sanctions will most likely not last a while; a lot of these European countries are very dependent from Russia's energy sector, gas & oil mainly. I know for fact Germany gets roughly 60% of its gas from Russia. It will definitely be interesting to see how the situation evolves. 
 

Economic sanctions are definitely the way to go right now, NATO members know that Putin is just trying to push their buttons, it's kinda obvious that Putin wants a reason to nuke and display his military power. What a mad man.

Absolutely agree but I think many European countries are developing new energy strategies. I guess they can get gas supplies from the US. In my opinion, working together and building networks is important and the base for peace (most of the time...) but it's also not clever to make your country completely dependent of others. So tbh yes it's gonna be hard for a short time but it's definitely also gonna get better and maybe this is the start for better developments, energy wise, in Europe. When one door closes another one opens.

My optimism is infamous in my family. Everything's gonna be alright 

[Get Drunk 17,480]

6 minutes ago, Writer In The Dark said:

Also part of these 39 million people are literally children under 18 and they CAN'T vote, so it's not 50%. Jesus

I don’t mean to be rude but you literally posted it in reference to voter turnout, which shouldn’t include children. You linked a Wikipedia page which I’m assuming is where you got the data from, their turnout % doesn’t include children either. So like.. that’s on you honey