Russia’s invasion into Ukraine

[the ocean 67,601]

this is going into territory i don't really know much about so can someone inform me on what the hell is going on right now? 

[Get Drunk 17,971]

7 minutes ago, Mer said:

what?!? You’re calling the invasion of a sovereign country a “precaution”?!?

Sovereign is questionable, but yes. I’m not going to preface my opinions with “Russia shouldn’t have invaded blah blah” because I’ve made my stance on that very clear, and anyone bringing it up is doing so in bad faith. 
 

But yes, invasion of a sovereign state that’s taking actions which actively put the security of your own sovereign state into concern, then ensuring demilitarisation is a precaution. 
 

Also, people are mentioning Nazism because it’s literally cited as a reason for Russia to invade and people in this thread are denying Ukraine has a problem with Nazism. 

This is a thread to discuss the invasion of Ukraine, theory is part of that discussion too. 

[baddisease 17,936]

at the end of the day, Russia's efforts to demilitarize Ukraine will fail, just like the USA's demilitarization efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Mer 61,753]

Just now, VioletBunny said:

Sovereign is questionable, but yes. I’m not going to preface my opinions with “Russia shouldn’t have invaded blah blah” because I’ve made my stance on that very clear, and anyone bringing it up is doing so in bad faith. 
 

But yes, invasion of a sovereign state that’s taking actions which actively put the security of your own sovereign state into concern, then ensuring demilitarisation is a precaution. 

 

You cannot accuse anyone of acting in "bad faith" when the two statements you just made contradict each other...you're trying to both be against the invasion and also argue that it was justified? 

[Get Drunk 17,971]

1 minute ago, Mer said:

 

You cannot accuse anyone of acting in "bad faith" when the two statements you just made contradict each other...you're trying to both be against the invasion and also argue that it was justified? 

Being against the invasion and understanding the reasons for it can both be true? I’m mostly talking about the events leading up to the invasion, as another user said, a lot of countries share the blame for this, not just Russia. 
 

It’s not as black and white as you’d like to make it seem. I can both be against the reckless killings of hundreds, and displacement of millions more, and still understand why it’s happening, and condemn those who created the environment in which caused it. 

[Mer 61,753]

5 minutes ago, VioletBunny said:

Being against the invasion and understanding the reasons for it can both be true? I’m mostly talking about the events leading up to the invasion, as another user said, a lot of countries share the blame for this, not just Russia. 
 

It’s not as black and white as you’d like to make it seem. I can both be against the reckless killings of hundreds, and displacement of millions more, and still understand why it’s happening, and condemn those who created the environment in which caused it. 

 

No I'm sorry I don't agree with you. 

 

While I am all for playing devils-advocate and analyzing the opposing view point, there's a line between understanding and agreeing. Agreeing is active, it involves taking a stance. Your stance, or lack thereof, wavers between "understanding" (the first time you've used that word) and making implications that you are agreeing ("you absolutely can", "Russia has every right", to quote your own words previously). 

[Get Drunk 17,971]

1 minute ago, Mer said:

 

No I'm sorry I don't agree with you. 

 

While I am all for playing devils-advocate and analyzing the opposing view point, there's a line between understanding and agreeing. Agreeing is active, it involves taking a stance. Your stance, or lack thereof, wavers between "understanding" (the first time you've used that word) and making implications that you are agreeing ("you absolutely can", "Russia has every right", to quote your own words previously). 

It’s theory, you can have several viewpoints. 
 

I’ll say it clearly now. I support the demilitarisation and denazification of Ukraine. I support putting a stop to the expansion (and dismantling) of NATO. I support Russia taking action against Ukraine. I, however, don’t support Russia’s aggressive approach. I also don’t support Ukraine’s desperate attempts at turning this into a multinational conflict, turning their own people into martyrs needlessly. 

[TRENCH 15,450]

12 minutes ago, VioletBunny said:

I support Russia taking action against Ukraine.

for doing what?

[Get Drunk 17,971]

12 minutes ago, TRENCH said:

for doing what?

Besides what I’ve mentioned in recent posts, the assault on and the bombing of the protestors in the Eastern regions. 
 

The illegal coup in 2014. 

[Mer 61,753]

10 minutes ago, VioletBunny said:

The illegal coup in 2014. 

 

The Revolution of Dignity you mean? Which resulted in the ousting of a Pro-Russian President who rejected to sign a trade agreement that was supported widely in both Parliament and by the everyday Ukrainian civilians? 

 

Why in the world would you be against that--it ended in victory, and the Ukrainian people got the freedoms they wanted with a new democratically elected President. 

 

Also I love how your comment makes it seem like there's such thing as a "legal" coup lol. 

[Get Drunk 17,971]

12 minutes ago, Mer said:

 

The Revolution of Dignity you mean? Which resulted in the ousting of a Pro-Russian President who rejected to sign a trade agreement that was supported widely in both Parliament and by the everyday Ukrainian civilians? 

 

Why in the world would you be against that--it ended in victory, and the Ukrainian people got the freedoms they wanted with a new democratically elected President. 

 

Also I love how your comment makes it seem like there's such thing as a "legal" coup lol. 

No President has had as much electoral support since the coup. 
 

Pre-2010, Ukraine in talks to join NATO. 2010, President ends discussion regarding NATO. The US supports a coup that has the support of a few hundred thousand within Ukraine that leads to the ousting of a democratically elected President. Coincidentally, the new regime shows interest in NATO again. 
 

There’s protests against this, particularly in the East where support for the President was strong. The new regime responded by branding the protestors as terrorists, and launched a multi year assault against the region, killing thousands. 

[Rorman Nockwell 56,713]

1 hour ago, baddisease said:

 

It wouldn't be the first time a Jewish person serves the purpose of white supremacy. Stephan Miller - from the Trump administration - was a white supremacist.

WTF? Full offence but you seem misinformed af.

Putin isn't accusing Zelenskyy of being a Nazi. The prime minister is also Jewish, the Ukrainian government also has strong ties to Israel, and for all its faults, it's difficult to see Israel supporting a state of Nazis, don't you think?

Putin referring to the far right whose battalions helped fight against the separatists in Donbas and Crimea. The Ukrainian government absorbed them into their armed forces because they didn't want to concede any more territory, but we're talking about 1000 soldiers max (not that it makes it OK to turn a blind eye to far right extremism, but this idea that Ukraine is dominated by Nazis is, as I said earlier, nonsense).

The far right - ALL far right parties combined - received less than 3% of the vote in Ukraine's 2019 elections.

I guess it's a matter of who and what you want to believe but all I have to say is that the suppression of independent media and promotion of propaganda in Russia is well-known, and it's an authoritarian capitalist state. I have been to Russia twice, I've experienced and seen it with my own eyes. Even the airport was filled with bullshit RT billboards in English about the US, etc (and I couldn't even take any photos because airports in Russia are considered areas of strategic military importance and it isn't allowed). We had to sign forms saying we wouldn't criticise Putin or his government. We were followed by the FSB because we were foreigners. And then there are the accounts of the Ukrainians and Russians who are my friends and every single one of them is saying the same thing - that this war is based on bullshit and is going to ruin both of their countries.

Russia is FAR closer to a Nazi regime than Ukraine is, at this point in time. Maybe it was different in 1940, but it isn't now.

[baddisease 17,936]

22 minutes ago, Rorman Nockwell said:

WTF? Full offence but you seem misinformed af.

Putin isn't accusing Zelenskyy of being a Nazi. The prime minister is also Jewish, the Ukrainian government also has strong ties to Israel, and for all its faults, it's difficult to see Israel supporting a state of Nazis, don't you think?

Putin referring to the far right whose battalions helped fight against the separatists in Donbas and Crimea. The Ukrainian government absorbed them into their armed forces because they didn't want to concede any more territory, but we're talking about 1000 soldiers max (not that it makes it OK to turn a blind eye to far right extremism, but this idea that Ukraine is dominated by Nazis is, as I said earlier, nonsense).

The far right - ALL far right parties combined - received less than 3% of the vote in Ukraine's 2019 elections.

I guess it's a matter of who and what you want to believe but all I have to say is that the suppression of independent media and promotion of propaganda in Russia is well-known, and it's an authoritarian capitalist state. I have been to Russia twice, I've experienced and seen it with my own eyes. Even the airport was filled with bullshit RT billboards in English about the US, etc (and I couldn't even take any photos because airports in Russia are considered areas of strategic military importance and it isn't allowed). We had to sign forms saying we wouldn't criticise Putin or his government. We were followed by the FSB because we were foreigners. And then there are the accounts of the Ukrainians and Russians who are my friends and every single one of them is saying the same thing - that this war is based on bullshit and is going to ruin both of their countries.

Russia is FAR closer to a Nazi regime than Ukraine is, at this point in time. Maybe it was different in 1940, but it isn't now.

 

I know who Putin is referring to. I was pointing out that Jewish people can be white supremacists or tools of them (like Stephen Miller, who openly spouted Nazi shit but supported Israel).

 

And I am aware that Russia is a authcap state.

[Rorman Nockwell 56,713]

13 minutes ago, baddisease said:

I know who Putin is referring to. I was pointing out that Jewish people can be white supremacists or tools of them (like Stephen Miller, who openly spouted Nazi shit but supported Israel).

And I am aware that Russia is a authcap state.

Okay sorry for misunderstanding. Zelenskyy, as I said, allowed Azov to be absorbed into his military, but I think it was a "common enemy" kind of thing. I'm not defending it or saying that it was the correct decision (in fact, by all accounts, it's come back to bite the Ukrainian government on the arse), I'm just saying that there is no evidence that Ukraine is full of Nazis.

[The Siren 30,521]

5 hours ago, Veinsineon said:

america has definitely turned the war into a “communal watch party”. it makes me so sick to see updates by big news outlets every 10 mins as if theyre not sensationalizing the SHIT out of war rn……. so very sad to see no action taken and only prying eyes from the western world.

most american civilians arent too tuned in to the eastern world so when we hear of a war going on, we want to see whats going on. and with the technology we have, we can see it with out own eyes.

back when the vietnam war happened, that was televised as it was happening. civilians got to see people they may know get killed on live tv.

its not a new concept for america, afaik

[baddisease 17,936]

9 minutes ago, The Siren said:

most american civilians arent too tuned in to the eastern world so when we hear of a war going on, we want to see whats going on. and with the technology we have, we can see it with out own eyes.

back when the vietnam war happened, that was televised as it was happening. civilians got to see people they may know get killed on live tv.

its not a new concept for america, afaik

 

The Korean War (idk if it was televised) and the Vietnam Wars were America's worst, most inhumane and pointless wars.

[house of balloons 12,792]

8 minutes ago, The Siren said:

most american civilians arent too tuned in to the eastern world so when we hear of a war going on, we want to see whats going on. and with the technology we have, we can see it with out own eyes.

and when it's about their country destabilizing the middle east by sticking its head where it doesn't belong, they suddenly don't care enough to watch  

[The Siren 30,521]

54 minutes ago, House of Balloons said:

and when it's about their country destabilizing the middle east by sticking its head where it doesn't belong, they suddenly don't care enough to watch  

thats cos its not being reported on.

none of it is on our news

[That Venice Bitch 28,150]

I promise I’m informed but I’m just mesmerized by how well Ukraine is doing against the Russian army … They are virtually holding off the third best military on the planet

 

Viva Ucrania

[house of balloons 12,792]

1 minute ago, The Siren said:

thats cos its not being reported on.

none of it is on our news

there are multiple reliable news sources that are available elsewhere very much for free, Al Jazeera and Al Arabia have both had expansions in the english language since the early 2000s, or you know, just check the internet, it's accessible to everyone in the us. don't just rely on national news that is run by big corporates and media moguls to tell you what's going on