bluebonnie

Maybe I'm too old to be on here, so I can see what's really happening on a deeper level when everyone else is arguing about semantics... 
but I feel like she has never found her real identity and self worth, and thus, through art, as therapy, begain singing about all of her trauma... it got her famous! 
She didn't even have a chance to absorb anything because overnight life was changed. And it's been nonstop ever since. And it seems that now, she has based her identity and self worth, her inherent value, in her art. But she is not her art. Her art is from her, but it is not wholly her.  
 
I say this because in her post, some things were concerning to me. When she said, "I don't know, my muse hasn't left me yet..." she sounded serious. Like that was a worry, a concern, and that all the praise she gets— "you're a genius!" 24/7 has become a pedestal that she needs to stay on for survival. It's pressure and torture. And she believes it, too. "I'm blessed by the gods, everyone knows it, and thus, that is who I am, that is my value on this earth" which is sad because we are all valuable, and we are born valuable, naked and unkempt. 
 
She needs to discover that none of this shit matters. What her peers think of her, doesn't matter. What her fans think of her doesn't matter. What her executives think, doesn't matter. When men think, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what she thinks of herself, and she can't do that without basing it on outside things or people for validation. 
 
All of this is exactly why so many, including myself, relate to her. She wasn't afraid to be "ugly" in the sense of, vulnerable in the "wrong" way. Like singing about being crazy, singing about being in love through abuse. She was being authentic, and what the hell is more inspiring than seeing someone be who they really are?

I can't believe I found a Lana fan who just said what I've been saying for years. 

Okay, you are my people. I could talk all day about all this, as a "seeker" / thinker type musician myself. I LOOOOVE Jung. She would DEFINITELY benefit from shadow self work. And I hate the new age movement for the reasons you mentioned, it takes well intentioned, deep people and it placates them with shallow fantasy.

i think it's so disgusting to me that she really had the audacity to say "her idea of feminism is getting gangraped" who would say such a thing about another person? that's really gross and unsettling to me. sure, she doesn't have to like lana, and she doesn't have to like her art, that's her opinion. but that comment really disturbs me, i don't really know who kim gordon is but now whenever i see her name or hear about her, all i'm going to think about is this. 

I've been thinking a lot about the LDR-FKA twigs comparison...
 
Back in 2014, Ultraviolence and LP1 were released. Two outstanding, brilliant, extremely emotional, intimate and sexual albums. Both were acclaimed, but we know which one got the absolute round of applause and who got trashed with sexist comments by a number of critics and co.
 
LP1 literally kicks off with the line "I love another, and thus I hate myself", and no one said a thing. To make things worse, twigs stated: "That’s a sentence I think will always resonate with me, probably for the rest of my life." Not as direct and headline-worthy as "I wish I was dead already", but you get the point.
 
Then, the masterpiece "Two Weeks" features this verse and chorus:
 
"I know it hurts, you know I'd quench that thirst
(I can treat you better than her) You say you're lonely, I say you'll think about it 'Cause you're the only one who resonates That chase, mouth open like high   Higher than a motherfucker, dreaming of you as my lover (Mouth open, you're high) Flying like a streamer thinking of new ways to do each other (Mouth open, you're high) Pull out the incisor, give me two weeks, you won't recognize her Mouth open, you're high"   "Sad Girl", anyone? "Shades of Cool"?   In the beautiful, experimental ballad "Hours", we're delighted with this phrase:   "Am I suited to fit All of your needs? Master of all of your needs"   If Lana sang this...   "I'm a sweet little love maker" and "So lonely trying to be yours", from "Pendulum"   "Now I yearn to follow you in everything I do All those years in isolation helped me want for you Lead me to a place I'm free from all the wrongs I do In return I'll live my life forever lovign you", from "Closer" (not only this is submission at its best, but also she's rhyming "I do" with "you" twice in the same verse, something Lana has been criticized for)   "Tell me why I act this way Tell me that I'll change someday I'll be the one that can satisfy you", from "Give Up"   "So I tell myself It's cool for me to wait for you Just for you I collect my thoughts and breathe Because I take your lead", from "Kicks"   Then in the next release, Melissa EP, she's singing "I'm your doll" while being abused as a blow up doll. The short film was acclaimed everywhere and even got some nominations. But Lana has a man with his fingers inside her mouth and it's a scandal; a video of Lana being raped in a Marilyn Manson video leaks and it's an anti-feminism statement.   Anyway, you guys get the point.   One of the reasons I have loved Lana for so long; I'm a very dominant guy, in every single way, and seeing someone being so, so open about her choice to be submissive, to be fragile, to be delicate, was amazing for me. I know quite a few guys and girls who are extremely submissive and fragile and have to pretend they're not or have to hide their kinks. Of course it makes people uncomfortable. And Lana stood for her art and her emotions.   I've been following twigs for so many years now, and it's obvious she has a delicate heart like Lana. I hope she doesn't take her comment in the wrong way.   Edit: With this post, I don't mean FKA twigs hasn't suffered in her career, not at all. As a black female artist, she got trashed for dating a white multimillionaire celebrity, and we can see the damage it caused her, mentally and emotionally, in Magdalene.

I can't believe I found a Lana fan who just said what I've been saying for years. 

But the truth of it is that Beyonce doesn't face nearly as much criticism rooted in misogyny. At least not over the past decade. Race is another issue (and I remember all of the unfair shit Bey took online for speaking up about police brutality, or how people try to discredit Cardi as being both black and Latina) but you'd be hard-pressed to find articles about Beyonce that come CLOSE to the level of sexism present in pieces about Lana from 2011-2015. Lana will never be persecuted for her race— and that's a huge privilege— but she takes way more sexist shit for her self-expression than Beyonce or Camila or Doja. jmo.
 
Again, it all stems back to how critics deem some female artist's work as "empowering" and others' as "regressive"

When she first burst on the scene as LDR, she sometimes projected a superior, arrogant attitude, which doesn't fly easily in these times, and that, combined with her beauty and talent made a lot of weasels--thousands of them--go after her. The subtext of everything they wrote was, "How DARE she? How dare she be who she thinks she is, not common and down in the mud like the rest of us, kissing ass and sucking up to get along?" Well, she did dare, and millions of soon-to-be-or-become fans loved it. LDR made millions.
 
The weasels went nuts: "why do we have to tolerate this ***** who thinks she's superior and who's daddy bought her a career and a record contract?" 
 
But she certainly heard the attacks early, and unfortunately started mitigating everything, including her image, her approach, her songwriting, and, sadly, apparently, her politics. In fact, over her next several albums, culminating in NRF, she bent over backwards trying to appease and fit in with the general dominant 'cancel' culture, but of course, for individuals like Anne Powers, nothing is enough unless you adhere strictly and totally to Powers' specific brand of feminism.   
 
Personally, I wish LDR had never given in, never mitigated anything, and simply "considered the source" of the type of envious, trollish and sometimes controlling and fascistic people going after her. She should have laughed in their sad, jealous faces, like the 21st century Helen of Troy of pop music. That's what Brigit Bardot would have done, what Sophia Loren would have done, what Charlotte Rampling would have done. 

It's almost as if people just like having drama and something to argue about.

i think that her bringing up twigs for for an entirely separate point lana was trying to make. twigs is not an example of what lana was saying in the first rant, but she's an example of the point that she made of lana being labelled a "whore".
 
again as lana brings up more people, people think it's immediately an attack. it wasn't an attack. when twigs gets on a pole people call it art, because it's art. when lana gets on the pole, people call her a whore, because she's a whore? that's not correct. if nicki gets on the pole is she a whore? beyonce? sia? dua lipa? marina? rihanna? gaga?
 
it goes back to lana's point she's describing extremely poorly - she is a "whore" because she is lana del rey. she is "depressed" because she is lana del rey. she is "dumb" because she is lana del rey. she is "anti-feminist" because she is lana del rey. she is this and that and the other.
 
this never happens in the commentary for these other women. critics don't make stories about twigs to build a fake presumed persona and then use that as a weapon. critics don't make stories about beyonce to build a fake persumed person and then use that as a weapon. critics don't make stories about ariana to build a fake presumed person and then use that as a weapon in reviews to drag her down.
 
"lana del rey" is a label to describe her as much as "beyonce" is a label to describe beyonce. i think that's the best comparison i can make. when something is compared to beyonce's name, its a compliment, but in reviews about lana's work when they use her own name to describe her work it's an insult because of these pre-conceived notions of her.
 
the point is less about twigs not being art and more about lana being a "whore".

she didn't start gaining mainstream respect until honeymoon, which is why the first line of that album... "We both know it's not fashionable to love me." also, high by the beach- "the truth is i never bought into your bullshit, when you would pay tribute to me" (God i hate that grammar) she's def talking about/to the media

Yes! I became a fan barely post SNL. I had heard Video Games but was not as familiar as maybe some of you were back then. I didn't see that performance but read about it and the backlash. I listened to other songs got the album and became a fan. Obsessed almost. On a daily basis I would Google her name and it was astonishing the amount of articles that were written about her. Not just reviewers from music publications but scholarly types putting Lana in as the target of some cultural crossroads that needed to be examined in depth. I am not exaggerating when I say it was truly unbelievable the amount af attention she got for a person that released "1" album. I will never understand it and some day sociologists or someone will look back and unwind all the minutiae to make sense of it. BUT that was then!!! Lana to her credit, God Bless Her, didn't fold and become a one hit wonder or one hit blunder. With her own determination and our support she came through and has created an amazing and solid body of work. So, why now this whole outburst in the past few days. Easy for me to say let it go but she has lived it. Maybe the scars she got early on just won't heal. 
 
I have to let go actually! Sorry for my outburst. (I will be releasing a poem shortly)

idc if lana never thinks about ar*ana again. they come from different universes. 
 
her whole career and aesthetic is founded upon looking and acting like a little girl. she's a recording artist - her abilities begin and end there. with the help of heavy vocal editing

LDR doesn't seem to understand that a lot of her critics, and critics, period, today don't necessarily want to see 'female empowerment,' but their specific version and vision of what 'female empowerment' is, and while NFR moved closer to their version of it, they still see her as not embodying their feminist ideology completely enough.  And they do see her as easily goaded and weak, and so attack, because they're bullies. 
 
Personally, the 'fuck off' at the end made her look immature and weak, in my opinion, all over again, and practically canceled out the entire point. 
 
Also, people who claim to be feminists, especially female feminists, should support all women, including female non-feminists and even women who are anti-feminist, at least as fellow women if not ideologically. 

You never liked it the way I said it
If you don't get it, then forget it
So I don't have to fucking explain it
 
 I hope we get more of these on COCC

You've got the WASP down culture right, as LDR did in 'Old Money,' and as many filmmakers and novelists have.
 
I'm not approving or condemning her for her socioeconomic background, whatever it was, whether she grew up in poverty, lower middle middle class, middle middle class, upper middle class or wealthy. I would never condemn anyone for their origins, for the same reason you mention: "suffering knows no rent bracket," as the saying goes. Just because a person grows up with some level of prosperity around them doesn't mean they weren't ignored, abused, overlooked, bullied, misunderstood, lonely, etc. "Yet still, inside, I felt alone, for reasons unknown to me."
 
You may have missed the first post I wrote about this, several pages back, which the one you quote from was a continuation of. 

To me, her point is pretty clear: when female artists sing about their sexuality in a way that's deemed positive or empowering, critics love it. But the moment Lana tries to weave a narrative where she makes mistakes sexually/romantically, and surrenders power to a man (who perhaps doesn't treat her well), she's crucified for it.
 
She wants everyone to be able to sing about their experiences without being told they're "glamorizing abuse." That's all she's saying. It's not an artist's job to be an example.

no i think you're totally right, she is obviously deeply triggered at the moment, something intense is happening for her that we obvs (and rightfully) aren't privy to.

What Lana is trying to say: I feel ostracized by a multitude of different vocal groups and I just want to feel like I'm accepted for who I am. That my art has a place somewhere. That I can gain the same notoriety and respect of my peers that I admire without feeling as if I'm working against an uphill battle. I feel lost without knowing my place in this industry and I've been struggling for years.
 
What Lana posts: Fragile women need a platform too. Why do all these women get praised for doing this but I get hated on? Fuck off if you don't understand me. (read with a pissed off NY accent)
 
There's people that understand what she wants to express and others that don't. I don't fault either. And I do empathise more with Lana after her video because it shows that she's speaking from an emotional place, whereas I previously thought it was due to defensiveness/arrogance. When you're in an emotional state it's difficult to properly formulate yourself in the "right" manner. So I think we (me) should go easier on her. 

The submissive woman has not always been championed by the patriarchy, it has been forced by the patriarchy. It's about choice. She wants to choose to be submissive, not have it forced upon her. She’s absolutely right when saying there needs to be a space for fragility in the feminist community. There's been a prominent focus on being a strong, independent woman and clearly she does not see herself in that image. It's forcing her to be something she isn’t. The same way a woman can be pressured and forced into a submissive role. Women need a space to be whoever they want to be and do whatever pleases or displeases them.
 
 
when she talked about fucking people in the industry, Fox News slut shamed her. And just because we can't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Okay, just created an account cause I have to chime in. As a 29 year old white woman myself, I have to add to the discussion some things I have not seen said yet. 
 
I grew up in the lower-middle class. I also grew up in generations of WASPS. I'm 99% sure Lana did too. WASP culture has its own issues, and from my observation, here are some defining characteristics:  
 
financially wealthy, emotionally unavailable
no communication or real relationship with family members
everything is about "image" and "success"
high chance of narcissistic issues in family members (seeing others as extensions of themselves)
looks great on the outside, typically diseased on the inside  
 
I say all this because, even though I agree she could have worded things WAAAAAYYYY better, when I first read her post, I saw a little glimpse of myself, someone who LOOKS like they have everything from the perspective of people from other cultures, but whose problems, though not physical/material (financial) are more emotional and psychological, and invisible.
 
 It's not fair to assume just because she came from a wealthy family, she's automatically priviledged. You know why? Because money isn't everything. I would give up so much to have grown up poor in goods but rich in love. (And conversely, my hispanic husband grew up with tons of love, touch, support, but financially poor. )A baby will die without touch. We obviously don't know her life, and what we think we know could even be false. But we can vaguely assume it's possible that she did in fact get sent to a boarding school, did have a substance abuse problem, and did go live with her aunt & uncle afterwards, instead of her parents. She also made that mother's day twitter post which reminded me a lot of my community of trauma survivors from a toxic family. She might have been estranged from her family. I mean why was she living in NJ in a trailer park? She didn't have to. Again, we don't know, these are assumptions. It's just that nobody is giving the other side of reality to all of this drama. It's easy to see why she was attacked in today's culture, but what I believe she's trying to advocate for, without yet having the right words to do so— are people who have problems that are invisible, like neglect, abandonment, things that create cycles of codependency & self sabotage, things that she got criticized for, and things that she's trying to now say, "I want to be a voice for these women" and the fact that people made it about her being white made her feel even more invisible and invalidated. (But again that was half her fault cause... words... omg)  
 
On a side note in her new video she seemed really unwell, she looked like she was crying.

chemtrails over the country club sounds like the title of a poem, not an album.

Okay, just created an account cause I have to chime in. As a 29 year old white woman myself, I have to add to the discussion some things I have not seen said yet. 
 
I grew up in the lower-middle class. I also grew up in generations of WASPS. I'm 99% sure Lana did too. WASP culture has its own issues, and from my observation, here are some defining characteristics:  
 
financially wealthy, emotionally unavailable
no communication or real relationship with family members
everything is about "image" and "success"
high chance of narcissistic issues in family members (seeing others as extensions of themselves)
looks great on the outside, typically diseased on the inside  
 
I say all this because, even though I agree she could have worded things WAAAAAYYYY better, when I first read her post, I saw a little glimpse of myself, someone who LOOKS like they have everything from the perspective of people from other cultures, but whose problems, though not physical/material (financial) are more emotional and psychological, and invisible.
 
 It's not fair to assume just because she came from a wealthy family, she's automatically priviledged. You know why? Because money isn't everything. I would give up so much to have grown up poor in goods but rich in love. (And conversely, my hispanic husband grew up with tons of love, touch, support, but financially poor. )A baby will die without touch. We obviously don't know her life, and what we think we know could even be false. But we can vaguely assume it's possible that she did in fact get sent to a boarding school, did have a substance abuse problem, and did go live with her aunt & uncle afterwards, instead of her parents. She also made that mother's day twitter post which reminded me a lot of my community of trauma survivors from a toxic family. She might have been estranged from her family. I mean why was she living in NJ in a trailer park? She didn't have to. Again, we don't know, these are assumptions. It's just that nobody is giving the other side of reality to all of this drama. It's easy to see why she was attacked in today's culture, but what I believe she's trying to advocate for, without yet having the right words to do so— are people who have problems that are invisible, like neglect, abandonment, things that create cycles of codependency & self sabotage, things that she got criticized for, and things that she's trying to now say, "I want to be a voice for these women" and the fact that people made it about her being white made her feel even more invisible and invalidated. (But again that was half her fault cause... words... omg)  
 
On a side note in her new video she seemed really unwell, she looked like she was crying.

chemtrails over the country club sounds like the title of a poem, not an album.

Okay, just created an account cause I have to chime in. As a 29 year old white woman myself, I have to add to the discussion some things I have not seen said yet. 
 
I grew up in the lower-middle class. I also grew up in generations of WASPS. I'm 99% sure Lana did too. WASP culture has its own issues, and from my observation, here are some defining characteristics:  
 
financially wealthy, emotionally unavailable
no communication or real relationship with family members
everything is about "image" and "success"
high chance of narcissistic issues in family members (seeing others as extensions of themselves)
looks great on the outside, typically diseased on the inside  
 
I say all this because, even though I agree she could have worded things WAAAAAYYYY better, when I first read her post, I saw a little glimpse of myself, someone who LOOKS like they have everything from the perspective of people from other cultures, but whose problems, though not physical/material (financial) are more emotional and psychological, and invisible.
 
 It's not fair to assume just because she came from a wealthy family, she's automatically priviledged. You know why? Because money isn't everything. I would give up so much to have grown up poor in goods but rich in love. (And conversely, my hispanic husband grew up with tons of love, touch, support, but financially poor. )A baby will die without touch. We obviously don't know her life, and what we think we know could even be false. But we can vaguely assume it's possible that she did in fact get sent to a boarding school, did have a substance abuse problem, and did go live with her aunt & uncle afterwards, instead of her parents. She also made that mother's day twitter post which reminded me a lot of my community of trauma survivors from a toxic family. She might have been estranged from her family. I mean why was she living in NJ in a trailer park? She didn't have to. Again, we don't know, these are assumptions. It's just that nobody is giving the other side of reality to all of this drama. It's easy to see why she was attacked in today's culture, but what I believe she's trying to advocate for, without yet having the right words to do so— are people who have problems that are invisible, like neglect, abandonment, things that create cycles of codependency & self sabotage, things that she got criticized for, and things that she's trying to now say, "I want to be a voice for these women" and the fact that people made it about her being white made her feel even more invisible and invalidated. (But again that was half her fault cause... words... omg)  
 
On a side note in her new video she seemed really unwell, she looked like she was crying.