Norman Fucking Rockwell - Post-Release Discussion Thread + Poll

[Vertimus 9,668]

I totally get what you mean. Though I can see how and why some fans really appreciate this record. It just doesn't bring out much out of me. I still very much revere Lana's first three records as her best. They all have a very distinctive soundscape and that depth of sound that NFR is completely lacking, most songs on it don't have that climax moment or intricacy in the instrumentals to make them sound great and varied.

 

I've said this on several other posts, but the production and mastering on here is quite lackluster, it sounds flat and lifeless.

 

Edit: That R.E.M. song is great... it's weirdly very NFR-ish, but like in a world where NFR actually sounds like a fully finished and properly produced and mastered record.

Full agree with everything you’ve said here. LDR’s best music on the first three albums was visionary, confident, poised and dramatic/melodramatic...whatever it was, when it worked, it really worked (for me, ‘Paradise’ is the best). I have seen spurts of that same power on HM and LFL, but even the best/better songs on NFR are depthless, empty and hollow. There’s no emotional subtext or underlying reverberations. After you listen to them a few times, they feel used-up and dead.

 

So it’s sad to me that LDR seems to think these are among the best she’s written. In terms of songwriting and performance, I will take ‘Yayo,’ ‘Ride,’ and ‘Old Money’ over anything on NFR any day. And certainly something as

scalding and unruly as the original version of ‘Live or Die.’

 

I don’t see anything special about Looking For America.’ Anyone, probably any one of us, could have written it. It’s a very modest little B-side at best. Just because a song arises from a tragedy, or is protest song, doesn’t make it inherently good as a song, or interesting. Since the 1950s, many people have confused the quality of the song with the nature of the problem or tragedy, which is a big mistake.

 

Yes, ‘Suspicion’ is an under-appreciated and relatively obscure R.E.M. track, and, as you’ve suggested, it has all the mood, depth, subtly and ambiguity that everything on NFR lacks. It’s fully realized, whereas as NFR is largely half-baked.

[West Coast 45,897]

Full agree with everything you’ve said here. LDR’s best music on the first three albums was visionary, confident, poised and dramatic/melodramatic...whatever it was, when it worked, it really worked (for me, ‘Paradise’ is the best). I have seen spurts of that same power on HM and LFL, but even the best/better songs on NFR are depthless, empty and hollow. There’s no emotional subtext or underlying reverberations. After you listen to them a few times, they feel used-up and dead.

 

So it’s sad to me that LDR seems to think these are among the best she’s written. In terms of songwriting and performance, I will take ‘Yayo,’ ‘Ride,’ and ‘Old Money’ over anything on NFR any day. And certainly something as

scalding and unruly as the original version of ‘Live or Die.’

 

I don’t see anything special about Looking For America.’ Anyone, probably any one of us, could have written it. It’s a very modest little B-side at best. Just because a song arises from a tragedy, or is protest song, doesn’t make it inherently good as a song, or interesting. Since the 1950s, many people have confused the quality of the song with the nature of the problem or tragedy, which is a big mistake.

 

Yes, ‘Suspicion’ is an under-appreciated and relatively obscure R.E.M. track, and, as you’ve suggested, it has all the mood, depth, subtly and ambiguity that everything on NFR lacks. It’s fully realized, whereas as NFR is largely half-baked.

 

This is exactly how I feel about the album, I think Lana would probably not like me using this term, but to me NFR is uncooked.

 

I cannot stand hot flat and lifeless the production and mastering are on this record. We could argue that this was an artistic decision on her part, to make the record sound more "rough to the touch", and I think that it may be it, but it's just not the type of sound that I actually like, it just sounds lackluster to me. I'm still not over how unbelievably tinny the piano sound on this record... and also how dry the guitar come off.

 

I think you've mentioned it in a previous comment, but like The greatest, one of the great songs on this record, it just lacks that climax moment. I very much feel that. Also, I don't like how the vocals sound just super muffled and flat all at once (and also Lana's enunciation here too). To me, after the first chorus, the instrumentation should've pop off and climax, but it just lacks intensity... and that's not just on this particular song, most songs on the record suffer from that in my opinion.

 

I fully agree with your views on Looking for America, I've personally listened to the song just a few times... it's one of those songs on which I really appreciate the message, but it doesn't make me appreciate the song for a song, if that make sense. Same thing goes for Hope. Love the lyricism, but the song itself is quite dull to me (sorry).

 

There used to be a distinct vision on her records, but NFR it feels quite unfinished I find. The last great Lana songs that I've really enjoyed was Get Free if I'm being completely honest. I honestly try to listen to NFR in its entirety from time to time, but I just cannot get into it. I never thought I would use this word to describe Lana's music with this word, but it's quite boring. I didn't like Lust for Life, and still very much consider it to be my least favourite album, but looking back I can definitely pin points aspects that she did better on it, than on NFR. 

[Ivory Cricket 353]

I was listening the unreleased songs in the car on my drive home today and my dumb ass had completely forgotten about the Cinnamon Girl line in Summer of Sam... 

Or the "Hollywood and Vine" line in Every Man Gets His Wish

[Vertimus 9,668]

This is exactly how I feel about the album, I think Lana would probably not like me using this term, but to me NFR is uncooked.

 

I cannot stand hot flat and lifeless the production and mastering are on this record. We could argue that this was an artistic decision on her part, to make the record sound more "rough to the touch", and I think that it may be it, but it's just not the type of sound that I actually like, it just sounds lackluster to me. I'm still not over how unbelievably tinny the piano sound on this record... and also how dry the guitar come off.

 

I think you've mentioned it in a previous comment, but like The greatest, one of the great songs on this record, it just lacks that climax moment. I very much feel that. Also, I don't like how the vocals sound just super muffled and flat all at once (and also Lana's enunciation here too). To me, after the first chorus, the instrumentation should've pop off and climax, but it just lacks intensity... and that's not just on this particular song, most songs on the record suffer from that in my opinion.

 

I fully agree with your views on Looking for America, I've personally listened to the song just a few times... it's one of those songs on which I really appreciate the message, but it doesn't make me appreciate the song for a song, if that make sense. Same thing goes for Hope. Love the lyricism, but the song itself is quite dull to me (sorry).

 

There used to be a distinct vision on her records, but NFR it feels quite unfinished I find. The last great Lana songs that I've really enjoyed was Get Free if I'm being completely honest. I honestly try to listen to NFR in its entirety from time to time, but I just cannot get into it. I never thought I would use this word to describe Lana's music with this word, but it's quite boring. I didn't like Lust for Life, and still very much consider it to be my least favourite album, but looking back I can definitely pin points aspects that she did better on it, than on NFR.

I think ‘The Greatest‘ should have returned to the refrain once more after the instrumental section...but that wouldn’t have given it the same ‘artistic credibility’ it is credited with by critics having the slow fade instead.

 

I agree the record is boring: that’s exactly right. There’s not a lot of ideas present and so it all seems rather ho-hum. Where would VB have been without Jack’s long long outro?? ‘Love Song’ and ‘California’ are things she could have written in her sleep. I certainly can’t take HIAB seriously, that with the serial killer section mashed in.

 

I definitely prefer LFL to NFR, as at least some tracks have the verve, vision and originality of her earlier work, though clearly she had begun repeating herself with tracks like ‘Cherry.’

 

I agree with you about the production and engineering on NFR. Why it is the way it is is another matter, and whether it’s that way by intent, accident or a combination of both, I assume we’ll never know.

 

I feel like the LDR that I fell in love with is receding and disappearing more and more all the time, and probably never really existed, a la ‘Vertigo.’ THAT LDR interested me, the subsequent LDR(s) interest less and less.

[West Coast 45,897]

I think ‘The Greatest‘ should have returned to the refrain once more after the instrumental section...but that wouldn’t have given it the same ‘artistic credibility’ it is credited with by critics having the slow fade instead.

 

I agree the record is boring: that’s exactly right. There’s not a lot of ideas present and so it all seems rather ho-hum. Where would VB have been without Jack’s long long outro?? ‘Love Song’ and ‘California’ are thinks she could have written in her sleep. I certainly can’t take HIAB seriously, that with the serial killer section mashed in.

 

I definitely prefer LFL to NFR, as at least some tracks have the verve, vision and originality of her earlier work, though clearly she had begun repeating herself with tracks like ‘Cherry.’

 

I agree with you about the production and engineering on NFR. Why it is the way it is is another matter, and whether it’s that way by intent, accident or a combination of both, I assume we’ll never know.

 

I feel like the LDR that I fell in love with is receding and disappearing more and more all the time, and probably never really existed, a la ‘Vertigo.’ THAT LDR interested me, the subsequent LDR(s) interest less and less.

 

The greatest would've been better if the instrumentals were more intense and balanced, it sounds like a high school band at some point I swear. Also, the vocal mixing (much like the rest of the record) is atrociously flat. I would honestly like to have a talk with the people that were responsible for the engineering and mastering of this album, they can't possibly be serious.

 

To me HIAB could've been a better song had it been more lyrically consistent. I've been saying this for months, but it feels like she mish-mashed three different songs together. I still can't get over her sticking to the "babies on the tour lyfe lyrics", it's incredibly dreary and cheesy on her part. I don't mind the serial killer part as it's the best part of the song I think, I wish the whole song was about that, would've been more cohesive lyrically.

 

The thing about VB is that I feel like the long hazy musical outro basically beefs up what is in fact a pretty simple and, sorry, weak song. I feel like just because it's almost ten minutes long, people act like it's somewhat of a masterpiece and it's a revolutionary song. I personally like the song, but the outro is quite weak to me and has that flat/dry tone that a lot of song on this record have. Sounds more like Jack fucking with his guitar than something sonically cohesive or interesting to listen to. I know it might sound silly, but I feel like it was Lana and Jack's attempt at recreating a longer song à la Pink Floyd's Shine On You Crazy Diamond, long instrumental intro/outro with a short lyrical bit. But the Pink Floyd track is actually well executed and very atmospheric, which VB is not in my humble opinion.

 

I feel like Lana is trying to get away from what actually made her different and more interesting than her contemporaries. She used to have such a strong and clear vision, very dramatic/melodramatic like you said before. But now I feel like she wants to bland in. She has the right to do what she wants. But as a listener and a fan, I also have the right to feel like her changing lanes and going into this "wannabe vagabond poet/Valley girl folk singer" road, is much less interesting. 

[Anthem 1,559]

I feel like the LDR that I fell in love with is receding and disappearing more and more all the time, and probably never really existed, a la ‘Vertigo.’ THAT LDR interested me, the subsequent LDR(s) interest less and less.

 

 

I've been in denial over this since probably Honeymoon. I think NFR! has been the tipping point. Two months after its release and I'm listening to.. Born to Die/Paradise 

 

The idea that she might have never really been the person I looked up to during the Born to Die/Paradise era is pretty crushing. But there's just no one else that comes anywhere close for me to get into? Maybe that's why I stay in denial.

[Vertimus 9,668]

I've been in denial over this since probably Honeymoon. I think NFR! has been the tipping point. Two months after its release and I'm listening to.. Born to Die/Paradise

 

The idea that she might have never really been the person I looked up to during the Born to Die/Paradise era is pretty crushing. But there's just no one else that comes anywhere close for me to get into? Maybe that's why I stay in denial.

Understood. I feel the same way. We fell in love with and were seduced by a phantom. Thus, the ‘Vertigo’ references on my part. It’s interesting how her ‘glamour’ period actually seems to have reflected the original meaning of glamour: a spell placed on something by elves or fairies to give it another, better and more attractive appearance.

 

I’ve made a playlist called ‘BOLDR’—‘Best of Lana Del Rey’—and most of it is from her early LDR period, including unreleased gems like ‘Angels Forever’ and ‘Hollywood.’ It also has a smattering if tracks from HM and LFL. I added CG and TG from NFR to it, but found I felt irritated and like I was fooling myself every time they came up in rotation, so I have removed them.

[love deluxe 8,862]

people are still talking about NFR's "bad" production. i get not enjoying it but coming onto the site everyday just to spread negativity seems rather pointless. just say "it sounds flat" (which is a reasonable argument) and go.

[West Coast 45,897]

people are still talking about NFR's "bad" production. i get not enjoying it but coming onto the site everyday just to spread negativity seems rather pointless. just say "it sounds flat" (which is a reasonable argument) and go.

 

I totally get that this is probably a lot of negativity for some fans... but at the same time this is LanaBoards, and we are also on the Norman Fucking Rockwell! Post-Release discussion thread, like we're discussing the album... I don't think I, or other people on here, are spreading negativity. We're merely discussing an album from an artist that we love. It's not all rosy and pink ya know.

 

I get that it's probably annoying for you to come here and see negative comments, or critiques towards an album that, I assume, you probably adore. But, last time I checked this is not the "Norman Fucking Rockwell! Post-Release praising/positive/good vibes" discussion (or something) thread? 

 

Well... you go. I'm not going anywhere.

[Terrence Loves Me 72,876]

Is it just me or is this post release so much dryer and dead than lust for lifes? i remember this place was still pretty buzzing after and we had a lot to talk about, with this era there isnt much to say; only that jacks production lacks bass...

[Vertimus 9,668]

I totally get that this is probably a lot of negativity for some fans... but at the same time this is LanaBoards, and we are also on the Norman Fucking Rockwell! Post-Release discussion thread, like we're discussing the album... I don't think I, or other people on here, are spreading negativity. We're merely discussing an album from an artist that we love. It's not all rosy and pink ya know.

 

I get that it's probably annoying for you to come here and see negative comments, or critiques towards an album that, I assume, you probably adore. But, last time I checked this is not the "Norman Fucking Rockwell! Post-Release praising/positive/good vibes" discussion (or something) thread?

 

Well... you go. I'm not going anywhere.

I agree, MXDH. ‘Negative’ comments, intelligent and thoughtful or otherwise, make some people ‘feel bad.’ I am for free, if civil, expression. On a site like this, we would only HOPE some people would be analytical, perceptive and critical in the best sense of the word.

 

Anyone who doesn’t want to read a specific post any further can just stop reading, ignore it, or skip ahead.

[Vertimus 9,668]

The greatest would've been better if the instrumentals were more intense and balanced, it sounds like a high school band at some point I swear. Also, the vocal mixing (much like the rest of the record) is atrociously flat. I would honestly like to have a talk with the people that were responsible for the engineering and mastering of this album, they can't possibly be serious.

 

To me HIAB could've been a better song had it been more lyrically consistent. I've been saying this for months, but it feels like she mish-mashed three different songs together. I still can't get over her sticking to the "babies on the tour lyfe lyrics", it's incredibly dreary and cheesy on her part. I don't mind the serial killer part as it's the best part of the song I think, I wish the whole song was about that, would've been more cohesive lyrically.

 

The thing about VB is that I feel like the long hazy musical outro basically beefs up what is in fact a pretty simple and, sorry, weak song. I feel like just because it's almost ten minutes long, people act like it's somewhat of a masterpiece and it's a revolutionary song. I personally like the song, but the outro is quite weak to me and has that flat/dry tone that a lot of song on this record have. Sounds more like Jack fucking with his guitar than something sonically cohesive or interesting to listen to. I know it might sound silly, but I feel like it was Lana and Jack's attempt at recreating a longer song à la Pink Floyd's Shine On You Crazy Diamond, long instrumental intro/outro with a short lyrical bit. But the Pink Floyd track is actually well executed and very atmospheric, which VB is not in my humble opinion.

 

I feel like Lana is trying to get away from what actually made her different and more interesting than her contemporaries. She used to have such a strong and clear vision, very dramatic/melodramatic like you said before. But now I feel like she wants to bland in. She has the right to do what she wants. But as a listener and a fan, I also have the right to feel like her changing lanes and going into this "wannabe vagabond poet/Valley girl folk singer" road, is much less interesting.

You and I think A WHOLE LOT ALIKE. I agree completely about HIAB. It’s the mash-up quality that ruins the song. It’s like she tried to make one jigsaw puzzle out of the random pieces of three different puzzles, and didn’t know what the completed picture was supposed to look like regardless.

 

My feelings exactly about VB. Without the outro, there’s very little song at all, and only something any of us could have written; Antonoff should probably get the lion’s share of the composition credit, and probably filled out the song because otherwise it would barely be a useable track at all, unless only a kind of brief interlude like the T. S. Eliot one on HM. You express yourself very well in terms of your ability to define what you like and don’t like about the instrumentation and music.

 

I also agree that LDR is moving away from everything that made her interesting, original, and visionary. What happened to the humor, satire and genuinely clever social commentary and asides? It’s as if she’s been replaced by a Pod Lana, a Woke PC Clone who wants to appease those on the Left who criticized her so harshly over the last five years. She’s been tamed or has self-tamed.

 

It’s funny that NOW she seems to think she’s ‘breaking all the rules,’ when it was actually the BTD/P LDR that broke all the rules with songs like ‘Cola’ and ‘Gods and Monsters.’

[Formation 4,204]

There's a lot of irony in the falling-out being experienced by a lot of stans due to NFR meanwhile she is having the most critical success because of this record. I can't say that I know why it's happening, but it's an interesting observation that critics are lavishing her with praise while some stans feel her artistic capability is flat-lining . 

[West Coast 45,897]

You and I think A WHOLE LOT ALIKE. I agree completely about HIAB. It’s the mash-up quality that ruins the song. It’s like she tried to make one jigsaw puzzle out of the random pieces of three different puzzles, and didn’t know what the completed picture was supposed to look like regardless.

 

My feelings exactly about VB. Without the outro, there’s very little song at all, and only something any of us could have written; Antonoff should probably get the lion’s share of the composition credit, and probably filled out the song because otherwise it would barely be a useable track at all, unless only a kind of brief interlude like the T. S. Eliot one on HM. You express yourself very well in terms of your ability to define what you like and don’t like about the instrumentation and music.

 

I also agree that LDR is moving away from everything that made her interesting, original, and visionary. What happened to the humor, satire and genuinely clever social commentary and asides? It’s as if she’s been replaced by a Pod Lana, a Woke PC Clone who wants to appease those on the Left who criticized her so harshly over the last five years. She’s been tamed or has self-tamed.

 

It’s funny that NOW she seems to think she’s ‘breaking all the rules,’ when it was actually the BTD/P LDR that broke all the rules with songs like ‘Cola’ and ‘Gods and Monsters.’

 

I agree with everything that is written here, but especially what I have highlighted.

 

I've been feeling the exact same way about Lana ever since the release of Lust for Life. Lana has definitely been tamed, or self tamed like you said. She no longer writes so called "shocking" lyrics, she was probably tired of having to explain why she went for such or such lyrics after the album was released. It's just kind of sad to me, she used to make something different, but now everything is so... beige?

 

Her lyricism definitely changed trajectory and I'm not sure if I'm here for it. On some of her new songs she couldn't sound more basic if she tried... like seven years ago I would've never even imagined that Lana would once sing "the culture is lit". We're far from the days of her lyrical excellency. I've said it in the unpopular opinion thread, but to me unless she gets out of this faux-woke/basic Valley girl narrative, the Lana that I love peaked at Honeymoon.

 

I believe that one of the reasons why Lana got rave reviews for this record (aside from critics obviously eating shit up for writing such terrible things about her all those years and finally realizing how great she is even at her most tamed and subdued), is how incredibly soft and not-Lana (comparatively to her first three albums) this album is. It's hilarious to me how she would think that she's breaking any rules with this record.

 

It would be a lie to me not saying that part of why I fell for her, was the Del Rey persona aspect of her music. Which couldn't be more erased these days.

[Thunder Revenant 20,966]

There is a difference between discussing/ critique and beating a dead horse. You guys made your point. Several times. We all got how you feel about the album. And you are entitled to your opinion.

Right now it is actually reaching a level where you ARE in fact just spreading negativity for the sake of it though.

[DCooper 37,156]

Nothing wrong with negative opinions about the album, but they do get a little grating when they have a "this is fact" attitude about them. The album is clearly loved by the majority.

[DCooper 37,156]

Her lyricism definitely changed trajectory and I'm not sure if I'm here for it. On some of her new songs she couldn't sound more basic if she tried... like seven years ago I would've never even imagined that Lana would once sing "the culture is lit". We're far from the days of her lyrical excellency. 

 

I'm sorry but it sounds like you don't really understand that lyric and it's purpose in the song if you think it's her being basic. Yes the word "lit" is basic, but it's use in The Greatest is absolutely not.

[West Coast 45,897]

There is a difference between discussing/ critique and beating a dead horse. You guys made your point. Several times. We all got how you feel about the album. And you are entitled to your opinion.

Right now it is actually reaching a level where you ARE in fact just spreading negativity for the sake of it though.

 

I can see where you are coming from with this, believe me I get it. We are very much aware that we are beating a dead horse... I mean it's been what almost three months since the album was released? I know we're talking ill of it, but we're basically keeping this record alive with this thread. I know we're being harsh here, but at the same time if it wasn't for us keeping the discussion alive about this record, I'd personally rather see us discuss the album's production/mastering and lyricism than coming here and seeing comments like "who thinks that Cinnamon Girl is the best song on NFR??!!1!". We can agree to disagree.

 

 

I'm sorry but it sounds like you don't really understand that lyric and it's purpose in the song if you think it's her being basic. Yes the word "lit" is basic, but it's use in The Greatest is absolutely not.

 

So it's basic, unless it's not? Not sure I follow you here.

 

By the way, I'm very much aware that what I write here isn't being written matter of factly. I've said it before, I'll say it again. What I write on this thread is my opinion.

[sjatib 5,174]

I agree with everything that is written here, but especially what I have highlighted.

 

I've been feeling the exact same way about Lana ever since the release of Lust for Life. Lana has definitely been tamed, or self tamed like you said. She no longer writes so called "shocking" lyrics, she was probably tired of having to explain why she went for such or such lyrics after the album was released. It's just kind of sad to me, she used to make something different, but now everything is so... beige?

 

Her lyricism definitely changed trajectory and I'm not sure if I'm here for it. On some of her new songs she couldn't sound more basic if she tried... like seven years ago I would've never even imagined that Lana would once sing "the culture is lit". We're far from the days of her lyrical excellency. I've said it in the unpopular opinion thread, but to me unless she gets out of this faux-woke/basic Valley girl narrative, the Lana that I love peaked at Honeymoon.

 

I believe that one of the reasons why Lana got rave reviews for this record (aside from critics obviously eating shit up for writing such terrible things about her all those years and finally realizing how great she is even at her most tamed and subdued), is how incredibly soft and not-Lana (comparatively to her first three albums) this album is. It's hilarious to me how she would think that she's breaking any rules with this record.

 

It would be a lie to me not saying that part of why I fell for her, was the Del Rey persona aspect of her music. Which couldn't be more erased these days.

 

Definetly the Lana we knew from the beggining peaked on Honeymoon. And that's a good thing, I think. She tried to make a collage of her previous sounds on LFL, which ended quite bad. Even on that album it felt like she wasn't comfortable at all replaying the Lana del Rey role, and somehow some of the songs showed that she was already trying to go elsewhere artistically. NFR has a completely different sound than all she did before. Maybe the only song that could fit in her previous trajectory is Doin' Time, which sounds absolutely out of place on the album's context. I think that the album is, in fact, somehow weak on production, composition and even on cohesion (I'm sure if the order of the tracklist had been done more carefully, the final product would be quite more enjoyable), but it's the beggining of an absolutely new direction on Lana's music. I dont want her to do copy-pastes from her previous albums on the next works she does, and I'm willing to hear what she'll bring us. Just hope that this time she takes the production of the album seriously, and that she'll be able to be professional about it, separating that she may be feeling lazy and the fact that there are some standards that relate directly to respecting the listener experience, and that shouldn't be skipped just for the sake of laziness -which is actually what I think that drove NFR to be the technical dissapointment that it is-.

[Rorman Nockwell 56,941]

I can see where you are coming from with this, believe me I get it. We are very much aware that we are beating a dead horse... I mean it's been what almost three months since the album was released? I know we're talking ill of it, but we're basically keeping this record alive with this thread. I know we're being harsh here, but at the same time if it wasn't for us keeping the discussion alive about this record, I'd personally rather see us discuss the album's production/mastering and lyricism than coming here and seeing comments like "who thinks that Cinnamon Girl is the best song on NFR??!!1!". We can agree to disagree.

 

Exactly. I mean, if someone wants to discuss some other aspect of the album, then I'm sure the rest of us will join in. However, shit like, "Oh my Goddddddd I just realised how AMAZING Fuck It I Love You is. She really did THAT. I listened to it whilst hanging upside down in the rafters in my grandmother's BARN in Wisconsin and OH MY GOD" doesn't exactly stimulate the conversation. I'm not saying that people can't, or shouldn't, make such comments, but ... I don't get why people are trying to shut down a discussion in this thread while simultaneously not contributing anything to it?